The Think Tank

[TZOFOSHO]

Originally Posted by Flesh4Fantasy

2) Level the amount of Rep that ANYONE can add or subtract, no matter what their Rep is? Say 10 points for Plus Rep and 5 points for Neg Rep from any member. That makes for a more level playing field. You may consider upping the # of Reps allowed each 24 hours to 15 or 20 in this instance only...

like i said before, i'm ok with the rep system as it is, it isn't that hard to build, all you have to do is be involved with the board, and not be a prick, or, be a funny prick....that said, i think that leveling the rep each member can give is a great idea.

Originally Posted by Sternenlied

[COLOR="Cyan"]

1) I wouldn't want members making a contest out of it and trying to beat each other other at leaving the funniest, wittiest, etc. remarks all the time.

this is exactly what i would do.

Originally Posted by Crotch_Ripper

Im sorry but this horse has been beat to death. Whatever system you emply you cannot remove the human factor to exploit it. The system is fine as it is IMHO.

Either you totally remove the rep system (which I am not in favor of). Or you remove the human factor to exploit things. Good luck.

CR

word.

Originally Posted by collesfracture

A small suggestion : Why not get rid of the option of negative repping for members?As far as i see thats causing all the troubles..Its possible in VBulletin..u only need to change the default settings.Henceforth one will only be able to positive rep a person and report/post in spam or movie alert threads the posts in question and let the mods take care of the mischief monger/s.

Originally Posted by Newland

I think we shouldn't remove the rep system.Rep is not just a way to measure my virtual penis,it's a way for all members to see if the member in front of them is reliable.I am a poster,i am a downloader.When you download,i think it's important to see who are you downloading from.If you see -300 rep,there surely is a reason for that,so it doesn't say don't download,it just says be aware.
That's why we shouldn't remove it.

i completely agree, i like the ability to 'check someone's references' before i download from them or fulfill a request for them, i agree that once you get a good amount of negative rep, it's hard to bounce back, but, it can be done, just don't be a prick (or like i said before, be a funny one).

[Sternenlied]

We have had quite the discussion these past days.

Opinions were offered, most of them drowned in accusations however. Apparently our members have to live under an oppressive system abusing its powers, mistreating our members, censoring whatever it doesn't like.

So ...

Why don't give opinions and suggestions on how to improve the system?

Don't just criticize and complain, step up and tell us what you think should be done, how things should be handled.

[Flesh4Fantasy]

Oh no...

I hate this debate. It is like a riddle which everyone has a different answer for.

When is a MOD just a member who is posting.

Seems as if the moment someone disagrees with anyone who happens to be a MOD - they start crying bully.

And no - I am not pointing fingers. I have not cared to follow all the posts in the thread which started THIS debate, but I am peripherally aware that it is getting heated and cantankerous. I do not know which member accuses which MOD. Nor do I care to find out...

Sternenlied,

I have nothing but the utmost respect for your demonstrated intellect and ability to post articulately. You often shed new light on a topic and provide valuable insight into why people act in certain ways. But this debate will only get ugly and cheap. Why subject yourself to it?

There is no way to fix that perception gap which accompanies every reply by a MOD in the midst of a heated debate about politics, religion, board policy, etc. Why ask for suggestions on fixing it? It is not anything in the system. It is not anything in the MOD's behavior. It is not anything within the individual members. Witness how welcomed the MODs are when they post playfully.

The problem lies in human behavior. Often when someone hurts us we try and hurt them back. You know very well that one can not legislate that factor out of existence.

So I say (and again, with respect) please let this topic rest. I know you are trying to express some dissatisfaction with how yet another issue has made someone cry foul. But I also read some sarcasm in your words and, if I am not mistaken, you realize you will get no seriously workable suggestions here - only a fight.

Please consider what I have said in light of what may be best for the board and for your peace of mind.

Flesh4Fantasy

[dashrendar44]

Frankly, if the perception of mod power during debates seems to be an issue, I'd reccomend emulating Helldump from SA and have a rule in the Rowdy Room that as soon as you post in a serious debate thread (which can easily be set apart from the others via a special thread tag) you have equal power in that thread to any other member. Sure, there will always be the jerks that try to claim vendetta when 2 weeks down the line he/she breaks a rule then accuses the mod of trying to get payback, but really, look at RB. The place seems like a high school locker room half the time with friends and groups and he said/she said style drama...I'm not sure anything you do will fix the way people act around here.

[Sternenlied]

I am not afraid this thread might turn nasty as well, up until now it never has. I still expect members to be capable of performing a decent debate without turning it into a mud throwing contest.

Well, I didn't want to focus on the moderator issue.
Moderators do have special "powers" in any forum, that's just (a technical) part of the function and cannot be changed.

So whenever and wherever a moderator posts he/she will still be a moderator. There is no way we can relinquish our powers at the entrance of certain threads.

So in a case of turmoil people will always be able to claim moderator harassment when things get inconvenient.

Because of this fact, yes indeed, there was some sarcasm concerning accusations of moderator autocracy - especially since nobody was threatened with being banned and we were still accused of such actions.

I was more concered with the issue of censorship. I would like some input on our members' thoughts. Only a small number was involved in the thread that re-started the topic but others might have read it as well - have thoughts of their own.

Since some members apparently witness a constant penetration of political correctness and censorship on RB I'll have to assume the issue isn't that new and cannot be placed exclusively in the argument of these past days but has to be considered a growing, yet constant, concern.

Essentially I don't have to care for my mind to be at rest, but I can still hope to make some progress for the sake of our entire community.

[dashrendar44]

Sure there's a way: just don't use them. If you see someone infringe a rule, notify another mod to take a look and get an unbaised look at it, and the mod making the claim, again, gets treated like any other member. It's not about some special "function" that makes you lose your powers, it's the understanding that while you post in that thread, you overtly agree to wield none of your power there. I can't really see an issue with the notion, but Idunno, theres always someone out there to complain right?

[FuckingRotter]

Well, it's like this 'ere see....

Rowdy Room rules: There are no rules.

Of course this isn't and shouldn't be a license to be a complete cunt without expecting a good slapping from the board. But I know my post in the reputation comments thread is what sparked this latest furore.

So in a section where "there are no rules" I get what could be taken as an informal warning. No threat of a ban, not even a slap on the wrist really. Just a friendly bit of advice that some may not like what I posted. Still it's a bit of a mixed message really when "there are no rules".

So I go away for a day or two thinking all is well in Rapesville and come back to the resulting fracas. Frankly I was puzzled by the reaction. Why was I being censured for a friendly bit of fun, passing on a joke made by a well respected member of this board? And why did one or two people feel the need to wade in on my behalf and start pointing fingers at Sternenlied and Phantom?

I just thought the whole thing was ridiculous. Quite right that bigotry and suchlike not be tolerated here or anywhere. But at what cost should this board start telling people 'you can't post that here'? At the cost of good humour that is often the spirit of The Rowdy Room.

I've thought long and hard about this before commenting. If I thought for one minute that the person who left the comment bore any malice to German people, or any people, as a collective group, I would not have posted it. I probably would have torn them off a strip myself.

In the absence of any actual German person giving their opinion it's impossible to know just how offensive or not the comment was. Which brings me to political correctness. None of us can be accountable for another persons sensibilities. Yet some find it necessary to be offended on everyone elses behalf. That is what political correctness has become. It's middle management pettyness on the part of mediocre minds that want to feel important by micro-managing everything. Even down to our thought processes. I'd expect better from this board, many of it's contributors and staff. Because one thing this place is severely lacking in is the mediocre.

What I posted has nothing to do with any form of intolerance, there were no calls for the eradication of 'The Germans', no threats ofviolence, no implication that they may be in some way inferior to the rest of us. Unfortunate perhaps that the comment left in my reputation box should have read "fuck those German academics, bastards". But it didn't.

So no, we shouldn't, as a whole board, not just the moderators, tolerate bigotry, racism, prejudice, hate. But censoring it? You're going to have a hard job doing that without killing much of the good spirited banter that goes on around here in the process.

Finally, Sternenlied, perhaps you can introduce a few trusted German friends to this place? We could certainly do with more of an international flavour, plus what better way of discovering just how far we can go before the people who may be offended actually do get offended? And I don't just apply that to 'Ze Germans'.

[Sternenlied]

Originally Posted by dashrendar44

Sure there's a way: just don't use them. If you see someone infringe a rule, notify another mod to take a look and get an unbaised look at it, and the mod making the claim, again, gets treated like any other member. It's not about some special "function" that makes you lose your powers, it's the understanding that while you post in that thread, you overtly agree to wield none of your power there. I can't really see an issue with the notion, but Idunno, theres always someone out there to complain right?

Why would another moderator have to be notified?
A rule infraction is a rule infraction. A moderator can surely make the call and act accordingly. There is no need for any such "understanding".

Originally Posted by FuckingRotter

So in a section where "there are no rules" I get what could be taken as an informal warning. No threat of a ban, not even a slap on the wrist really. Just a friendly bit of advice that some may not like what I posted. Still it's a bit of a mixed message really when "there are no rules".

Why is everyone so hell-bent on this alleged thread of a ban?
I have asked multiple times but noone has been able to point out that incident so far. Either someone finally do so or let it rest.

Of course there still are rules in the RR. I do not see why people like to interpret the overall "No Rules" so literally while on other occasions they fully support a general code of conduct everywhere on RB.

I essence you weren't banned, not even warned, your post wasn't deleted (thus not being "censored" at all). All that initially happened was me telling you open racism would not be tolerated on RB - whether the comment itself should be considered "racism" or not is another question.

Originally Posted by FuckingRotter

So I go away for a day or two thinking all is well in Rapesville and come back to the resulting fracas. Frankly I was puzzled by the reaction. Why was I being censured for a friendly bit of fun, passing on a joke made by a well respected member of this board? And why did one or two people feel the need to wade in on my behalf and start pointing fingers at Sternenlied and Phantom?

Well, the two problems with "a friendly bit of fun" are those:

a) Not everybody finds the same things funny.

b) Related to the previous discussion - which led to the comment in question - one might have considered the issue might be too much of a sensitive nature to have fun with it.

In the end it's an individual issue that cannot be answered in the absolute.

Originally Posted by FuckingRotter

I've thought long and hard about this before commenting. If I thought for one minute that the person who left the comment bore any malice to German people, or any people, as a collective group, I would not have posted it. I probably would have torn them off a strip myself.

Well, those are exactly what I saw in the discussion that led to the comment in question. Those do not matter however, this has turned into a general question.

Originally Posted by FuckingRotter

In the absence of any actual German person giving their opinion it's impossible to know just how offensive or not the comment was. Which brings me to political correctness. None of us can be accountable for another persons sensibilities. Yet some find it necessary to be offended on everyone elses behalf. That is what political correctness has become. It's middle management pettyness on the part of mediocre minds that want to feel important by micro-managing everything. Even down to our thought processes. I'd expect better from this board, many of it's contributors and staff. Because one thing this place is severely lacking in is the mediocre.

I agree - walking the line between overtly aggressive precautions and trying to create an environment for everyone to feel generally comfortable in can be quite tricky. Overstepping this line onto either side occasionally is something that cannot be avoided.
You personally - a single member - cannot and should not have to be accountable for other members' sensibilities (taking them into consideration doesn't hurt either, on the other hand) but the moderators are.
It has nothing to do with political correctness or being offended on someone else's behalf, it is simply about trying to hold the balance between "acceptably offensive" and "unacceptably offensive". Errors in judgement as well as disagreements are bound to occur.

Originally Posted by FuckingRotter

What I posted has nothing to do with any form of intolerance, there were no calls for the eradication of 'The Germans', no threats ofviolence, no implication that they may be in some way inferior to the rest of us. Unfortunate perhaps that the comment left in my reputation box should have read "fuck those German academics, bastards". But it didn't.

Exaclty. It didn't.
And - assuming it was made all in good fun - taking a comment like that out of any context can easily make it lose its humour.

Originally Posted by FuckingRotter

So no, we shouldn't, as a whole board, not just the moderators, tolerate bigotry, racism, prejudice, hate. But censoring it? You're going to have a hard job doing that without killing much of the good spirited banter that goes on around here in the process.

My initial question all over again.
Not tolerate it but not "censor" it as well.
How would we accomplish that?

Originally Posted by FuckingRotter

Finally, Sternenlied, perhaps you can introduce a few trusted German friends to this place? We could certainly do with more of an international flavour, plus what better way of discovering just how far we can go before the people who may be offended actually do get offended? And I don't just apply that to 'Ze Germans'.

While I do have German friends of course there is only one I would want to introduce to RB and I did that some time ago already. Other German members are around - none of which I know personally - but they're not very active in board social activities.

The "problem" with Germans is they're so indoctinated in an alleged historic guilt, liability and debt due to WW2 most of them wouldn't dare defending their pride and honour in public. They are conditioned to compliantly accept anything directed at them or their nation.
Actually drives me crazy sometimes. But that's beside the point.

I certainly have lost my temper more than once during my time on RB but nobody can accuse me of taking certain sides exclusively. I think I can rightfully claim to be among the most impartial people around RB. This never was about "the Germans", they were just the the example that led to this discussion.

[FuckingRotter]

Just by take each incident on a case by case basis and using your judgement and hoping that members can be accepting. That is really the very best that any of you can do.

Originally Posted by Sternenlied

My initial question all over again.
Not tolerate it but not "censor" it as well.
How would we accomplish that?

[batffink]

I think that the way things are heading, it will all boil down to us not saying anything remotely offensive to anyone about anything, so that no-one will have any remote excuse to be upset.
This will end up with the Rowdy Room becoming as bland as a housewive's knitting circle or an afternoon tea in the Rectory.
I sympathise to some extent with Stern as being the Mod involved in this fracas it has not been an easy run. Being a Mod in this case, as the siuation stands, is a no win situation.
I firmly believe that, in general, most people are now so conditioned by society to being PC that ANY criticism is now interpreted as either racial or any other kind of prejudice. I also believe that some minorities play on this and take advantage of it.
Maybe some hard and fast rules can be adapted to suit the Rowdy Room to avoid further unpleasant incidents happening but I don't think so. We might as well not have a Rowdy Room if we can't be confrontational and controversial or thick skinned.
I hope that this post is not construed as my further stirring the pot. I'm trying to be rational here.
As it stands now, any decision on the suitability, or not, of a post, depends on a Mod who is going to make a decision based on his, or her, own pre-concieved ideas. Maybe all Mods should have to make a collective decision in the case of a doubtful post or maybe a Board committee. I don't know.
Regards to all. I hope we can sort it out soon

[pervipete]

Originally Posted by Sternenlied

The "problem" with Germans is they're so indoctinated in an alleged historic guilt, liability and debt due to WW2 most of them wouldn't dare defending their pride and honour in public. They are conditioned to compliantly accept anything directed at them or their nation.
Actually drives me crazy sometimes. But that's beside the point.

I certainly have lost my temper more than once during my time on RB but nobody can accuse me of taking certain sides exclusively. I think I can rightfully claim to be among the most impartial people around RB. This never was about "the Germans", they were just the the example that led to this discussion.

No disrespect, but there is truly no such thing as impartiality, especially when you live and work amongst people of a different race or culture. And maybe the fact that they drive you mad not defended themselves, and the emotive subject it was repped against, brought on thoughts of here we go again.

As for war guilt of the general German population I'm not a fan of the 'sins of the father' attitude so as long as they don't deny the Holocaust then I not going to blame them for what their fathers may have done. The problem comes with assigning guilt to those that did do the crime.

The problem is that everything we say in here could offend someone, no matter what spirit it has been said in.

Take as an example Batfink, one of the kindest, funniest and most respected members of this board. Who is accused of beastiallity, namely sheep shagging. Now this is something that has been used to insult, with varying degrees of malice, the Welsh, Scots and even Aussies, for decades, probably even centuries, by the English.

Here's the thing, Batfink takes it in the manner with which it is meant, namely banter, but a Scot reading the post may be offended at the stereotyping. So do we carry on, knowing that Batfink will just give as good as he gets, and sometimes more, or do we stop, incase some nameless Scot, Welshman or Aussie is offended?

And how far do we take this anyway, when does it reach stupidity. I am overweight, does that mean no more fat jokes? I'm also from Essex, so no Essex girl jokes?

If we eradicate the insults, we may eradicate the very thing that makes RB special, its warmth and humour, for it is a truism that a joke will offend someone, and that some people will be offended, no matter what is said.

[FuckingRotter]

I expect our British readership will have heard of Stephen Lawrence? For everyone elses benefit I'll explain.

Several years ago Stephen Lawrence was black man who was murdered in what seems to have been a racially motivated attack. Several people have since been arrested and some put on trial for his murder, but no conviction obtained.

Fast forward a few years. A community centre opened in Stephen Lawrences memory is vandalised. Now in another forum I go on people were quick to condemn this as a 'hate crime'. How easy it is to jump to conclusions. Read the story and it revealed that two black youths and an Asian youth were seen on CCTV committing the vandalism. One person pointing this out in the thread was then accused of racism!

I'll leave you all to draw your own conclusions from that little episode.

[Sternenlied]

You're right of course.

It has absolutely nothing to do with what happened here but then again ... still makes it just another argument lacking any relevance so why would I bother?

Alright then ... what the hell?

I will not have my actions purposely misinterpreted any longer.

Just do whatever you want in the RR.

[pervipete]

Stern, I think they is some relevance in FR's post, or at least in the story behind it.

It was announced as a 'Race hate crime' more or less immediately before the police had had a chance to investigate the crime. And when it was discovered that the vandals were from black and asian backgrounds, the press fell silent with no comment.

The moral, it is easy to see a racist intent behind anything, even if thet intent is not even there.

Now, a question if I may? Was this whole debate needed? You say the nationality was nothing to do with it, what not even sub-consciously? And it must have been obvious to all but the most stupid, and there is no way on this earth that I would call you stupid, that it would flare up into a heated debate. So why?

We are all adult's here, we all know where the lines are drawn.

[RapeU]

Stern, Phantom. Don't give up.

[Sierra]

As I said, I have been largely absent from RB for a while. I was told about this thread and the other one on this subject and felt that I could not stay silent. I said my piece on Rowdy Room behavior in the other thread and will not bore you by repeating it here. But let's take this a step further.

Over a year ago, Somedude and I had a conversation about me becoming a moderator at RB. I turned him down. We have had the same conversation on several occasions, with the same results.

Over the course of the last two years, I've seen three of the moderators here - all of whom are close to me and who I value - be challenged, berated, called out, insulted and physically threatened. Not for their beliefs or because they were disliked, but because of decisions each one made as a moderator at RB.

I have not agreed with every decision made by any of these three, and I have been one of the most vocal in my disagreement (just ask them). I strongly believe in the right and the responsibility of each citizen of a community to voice dissent. But I defy any of you to spend a month in the mod chair here at RB and see some of the hatefulness and bile they receive both here on the board and more particularly in their PM boxes without wondering why they have not walked away in disgust by now.

I'm not asking you to like any of them. Or to treat them in any differently as members than you would anyone else. But please respect the position, and let them do their jobs.

[pervipete]

Can someone please tell me WTF we are 'discussing' now.

Was it the thread, or was it people querying the mods? Because I'm getting confused.

I do, have always and always will, respect the mods, however this is not a blind respect, I reaslise that they are human and will sometimes make a mistake. As such I, as a now long standing, and I hope, respected, member of this community, reserve the right that if I spot this happening, or something I am uncomfortable with, to speak to the mod, whether by PM or in the thread. If it is I who have it wrong, I will appologise.

However, it will not stop me, for the simple reason that, if I or others can't, then the mods risk losing respect, for the simple reason that there will be a risk, and I emphasise the RISK, of the accusations of totalism coming true.

Now, for all the accusations that have been flying around, this point has not been reached, yet, if it did then I'll be the first out of here.

Neither would I like this site to be completely unmoderated, I have been on sites without full time mods, and all that happens is you get one member who appoints themself the unofficial mod, and makes life a misery for all and sundry.

Being in a position of authority anywhere, not just a mod on a forum, carries more responsibilites than privileges. You are in a no-win situation, members will take it personally if you have tell them off. And unfortunately, this is not ever going to change.

Now, you maybe wondering what the point to this post is, well it is simple.

We the members have to understand that the mods have a job to do and respect them for it.

The mods have to understand that we the members will query there decisions when we think it they are wrong.

I have read the thread, and too be brutally honest, there were accusations flying around on both sides of the discussion, and both sides can hide behind righteousness of their argumant, but even so it did get out of hand.

[TheOneSolo]

About Rep

When I got here two days I saw the reputation meter and was like what the hell is that. At first I didn't care, cause I can see who is who by just reading everything under the sun and then making my own decision on how repeatable someone is.

However someone made a good point:

Originally Posted by Newland

I think we shouldn't remove the rep system.Rep is not just a way to measure my virtual penis,it's a way for all members to see if the member in front of them is reliable.I am a poster,i am a downloader.When you download,i think it's important to see who are you downloading from.If you see -300 rep,there surely is a reason for that,so it doesn't say don't download,it just says be aware.
That's why we shouldn't remove it.

This is a very good point, and something that I started doing subconsciously. First I would just click on anyone's link, and after running into a lot of bullshit, I would look at the person's rep, and join date, to help determine if I should even bother.

Nothing in life is perfect, and it would be foolish to try to make something perfect. This is not to say that things can't be improved on, however, how do we know if our changes will make things better or worse. We don't, so at times it's just better to leave things as they are.

About Mods Posting

Why in the hell should mods not be able to post? I'm sure most of them before they became Mods were posting, so a title and a few more privileges and responsibilities shouldn't put them on the sideline from starting threads or generally replying to a thread.

I'm sure there is no official rule stating that they have to change their actions after becoming a mod. Since no such rule exists, there is nothing to even debate on this subject, since they are breaking no rules.

About Mod Decisions

This is just a forum. It's not that serious. A mod is not a judge deciding if you are going to get 30 to life.

Moderators are human, and humans are emotional creatures by nature. Emotions always cloud intellect to some degree no matter how objective we are. There is no way around this. We just have to accept things the way they are, right wrong or in between.

About the Rowdy Room

There is nothing rowdy about the Rowdy Room. As I was reading this thread, I forgot I was in the Rowdy Room. I thought I was in Idle Talk. Of course I'm not just referring to this thread, but all the threads in this room.

Sometimes I feel that some people on this forum couldn't handle getting flamed, so I keep everything very light. Not that I'm afraid that someone with a high rep would -rep me if I flamed the living shit out of them, but I feel that others might have this fear and that is why they are so tame. I'm tame cause I was told "when in Rome..."

About the Rape Board

Overall this is a pretty cool place. I haven't been a member of a forum in almost seven years, and it feels good to be a part of a community with thoughts that mirror mine.

I've done a lot of downloading which I must thank the community as a whole for providing. I also want to thank the community for giving me something to read as I let time pass from now till then. A lot of it is funny, entertaining, and at times intellectually stimulating. Again thanks.

There was some issue here and there about the amount of activity or lack there of on this forum. Well, at first, it bothered me a bit, then I decided to see the glass as half full. When there is no activity or low activity, that suggest, that people have wives, husbands, kids, jobs, and responsibilities which is a good thing. Can't knock people for having a life outside of cyberspace.

Anyway, I'll be here for a while and look forward to the various interactions that we will find ourselves in.

Peace!

[justmetoo]

Originally Posted by TheOneSolo

About Mod Decisions

This is just a forum. It's not that serious. A mod is not a judge deciding if you are going to get 30 to life.

I think you are over-simplifying things here. I have no idea what your background is but I was a mod/admin at a large site for a couple years and my experience there was far different from your understanding. From an outsider looking in I gather the same situation I was in happens here as well.

It does become real life. People had my phone number and my real email address. They knew were I lived. I had met some of them IRL. In short I was a real person. I expect the same happens here when you get to a mod level.

Unless you've been there you won't understand. It just isn't as simple as you make it out to be.

[TheOneSolo]

That particular comment was directed at people who have a problem with decisions that Mods make such as "banning, closing threads" and stuff like that.

At the end of the day, us being human, it is natural for our cyberspace interaction to in time develop, where it goes off the cloud.

I've never been a Mod/Admin on any large sites, so yes it is true that I can not empathize with what they go through. I could imagine it consist of dealing with a lot of different personalities, and making tough decisions, and getting no or very little appreciation from the community.

I've noticed that people(including myself) use the term IRL as to distinguish the net from not being on the net. Now that I think about it, IRL we are sitting in front of our computers, reading and posting. Guess there shouldn't be a label placed on the communication medium that is used, cause when I call someone on the phone, or text someone, my mind see's that as real life, then I get on a forum and it is not.

In closing I feel that mods shouldn't be given a hard time for the work they do. They keep the order, and order is good.