When it isn't a fantasy.... - Rape Board

Trustme · 03-16-2008, 03:48 PM

A good friend of mine who I indulge in rape fantasies with quite regularly (physically as well as intellectually) had someone try and rape her for real a few nights ago. It open the debate about "Well surely it's what you've always wanted!", but it definately wasn't! In trying to help her come to terms with this dichotomy, I have explained things as follows:

Those who have fantasies about being raped will deliberately put themselves in a position to be raped (usually by "known" assailants), and when it happens they will get something from the experience, it is a selfish act on their part to satisfy an urge they have. In this sense the person being raped is actually in control of the situation (no matter how little control they have during the experience). They are not "consenting" to rape in the traditional sense of the word, rather they are exposing themselves to the possibility of it deliberately. When they do NOT deliberately put themselves in that position and do not desire it it becomes a totally selfish act on the part of the rapist and the victim neither desires it NOR do they derive any personal satisfaction or growth from the experience, rather a large part of their psyche is taken from them forcibly.

I have councelled more than one person on this aspect, girls who have been raped for real but still fantasize about it and cannot understand why they do when the experience of being raped for real was so traumatising. By putting it into this context of the "sefishness" of the experience I have helped them seperate the two events as being totally different in context and therefore unrelated to each other and this has helped them come to terms with their desires versus their experiences.

I hope this helps some people to understand the "consentual rape" discussion and put it into some kind of context emotionally and sexually.

MarcEdeSade · 03-16-2008, 05:22 PM

it surely is a fascinating thing to expore from a psychological standpoint...
but there are other, less plausable fantasies that also excite.
Fantasizing is an excellent way to exercise emotions that we don't experience day-to-day. (and in some respect, so might dreaming also be) similar to going to scary movies. In our safe-secure world, we're very rarely frightened.
We enjoy the fantasy of being scared "shitless" but in reality might be emotionally scarred by the experience.

Sternenlied · 03-16-2008, 05:27 PM

Quote:

They are not "consenting" to rape in the traditional sense of the word...

That must be the understatement of the year 2008 so far ...

Quote:

By putting it into this context of the "sefishness" of the experience...

A rather disputable opinion I might add. In many ways ...

People seeking someone to put their rape fantasies to life with aren't "selfish" same as a partner in a relationship doesn't have sex merely for selfish reasons. Neither are they following an urge they have. An urge (as you put it) would be something they can't control which is not true at all.
A rapist however is (most times, not always) driven by an urge, making it not exactly a selfish act either.

Quote:

...the victim neither desires it NOR do they derive any personal satisfaction or growth from the experience, rather a large part of their psyche is taken from them forcibly.

Thanks for stating the obvious for anyone with at least the smallest bit of common sense ...
The psyche however is not taken from anyone at all.

Quote:

I have helped them seperate the two events as being totally different in context and therefore unrelated to each other and this has helped them come to terms with their desires versus their experiences.

In my opinion telling people half-true and pretty debatable person opinions to help them is rather dangerous and not to be adviced. You should keep in mind (if this ... stuff ... you told them actually did help) that you might have been lucky and are capable of doing a lot of additional damage to rape victims by feeding them your ... wisdom.

Quote:

I hope this helps some people to understand the "consentual rape" discussion and put it into some kind of context emotionally and sexually.

Since most of it is wrong I doubt it very much!
I can only hope our members don't just buy this.

Sierra · 03-16-2008, 06:01 PM

As both a rape victim and someone who enjoys rape fantasies, I take great exception to most of what you say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trustme

A good friend of mine who I indulge in rape fantasies with quite regularly (physically as well as intellectually) had someone try and rape her for real a few nights ago. It open the debate about "Well surely it's what you've always wanted!", but it definately wasn't!

I have said this over and over. Rape and rape fantasy are NOT the same thing - or even similar. Rape is not a sex crime - it is a crime of violence.

Quote:

Those who have fantasies about being raped will deliberately put themselves in a position to be raped (usually by "known" assailants), and when it happens they will get something from the experience, it is a selfish act on their part to satisfy an urge they have. In this sense the person being raped is actually in control of the situation (no matter how little control they have during the experience). They are not "consenting" to rape in the traditional sense of the word, rather they are exposing themselves to the possibility of it deliberately.

Do you truly think that all the ladies on this forum secretly want to be raped for real??? If you do, you need to pull your head out of your ass.

This is not only dangerous thinking, it's insulting and just plain wrong. You put the blame and responsibility back on the VICTIM OF A CRIME, making her a victim yet again. Who are YOU to put yourself in the position of sage??? No woman "asks for it."

Quote:

When they do NOT deliberately put themselves in that position and do not desire it it becomes a totally selfish act on the part of the rapist and the victim neither desires it NOR do they derive any personal satisfaction or growth from the experience, rather a large part of their psyche is taken from them forcibly.

Oh, please.

Quote:

I have councelled more than one person on this aspect, girls who have been raped for real but still fantasize about it and cannot understand why they do when the experience of being raped for real was so traumatising. By putting it into this context of the "sefishness" of the experience I have helped them seperate the two events as being totally different in context and therefore unrelated to each other and this has helped them come to terms with their desires versus their experiences.

I hope this helps some people to understand the "consentual rape" discussion and put it into some kind of context emotionally and sexually.

I am a rape victim. I counsel rape victims under the aegis of our local rape crisis center. I also have fantasies.

YOU need to STOP counselling women before you do more damage. If the rules of this board were different I would be much more blunt, but what you say is doing much more harm than you think.

Phooey.

older and wiser · 03-16-2008, 06:28 PM

Well said Sierra, real rape is a vile act, role playing between 2 trusting and consenting adults is something else and in no way related. I think Trustme is almost of the view that any girl who goes out in a short skirt is 'asking' for it

Trustme · 03-16-2008, 06:29 PM

There seems to be a HUGE amount of misunderstanding of my post here, although I'm not certain why as my post was pretty straightforward but for those who are having trouble reading basic English I would offer the following addendum, just to clear everything up:
1. NOWHERE in my post did I even IMPLY that ANYONE who fantasises about rape secretly wants it to happen, in fact I was at pains to point out the EXACT OPPOSITE.

2. When I use the word SELFISH, taken in the context of my post that is exactly what it is, the person who arranges for their rape fantasies to be realised in PLAY is thinking of what they will get out of it, they certainly should not be doing it for someone elses benefit (excluding mutual benefit before anyone picks any holes in that argument). You appear to be implying that I am saying anyone who enjoys rape play is a selfish person, whereas (if you'd read the post properly) you would know I was talking about the motivation for seeking it, which is personal gain sexually, or selfishness. Selfishness is not a bad thing contextually, it is merely a motivation.

3. No woman "asks for it". You have totally confused me talking about a person indulging in PLAY rape and a person being actually raped. That is the difference between being in PLAY (ie "putting yourself in a controlled situation to be raped in play") and being just raped when you expressly have not consented to or seek it, which is never sought and never justifiable.

4. I have every sympathy for what has happened for you and every respect for what you do, but I think you need to reread my post properly, as with the other poster who entirely missed the point of my post, which was to create a very real distinction between the fantasy and the act. I sincerely hope you do not councel your clients that there is no distinction because to the intelligent world at least there is a very real distinction between the fantasy and crime.

I have reread my post and I'm afraid I can still not see how you could both miss the point so monumentally, but at least it has started a debate which can do nothing but good as long as everyone keeps their heads and doesn't start flaming people for offering an opinion.

Trustme · 03-16-2008, 06:39 PM

I think on rereading my post that the problem seems to stem from this paragraph :
"Those who have fantasies about being raped will deliberately put themselves in a position to be raped (usually by "known" assailants), and when it happens they will get something from the experience, it is a selfish act on their part to satisfy an urge they have. In this sense the person being raped is actually in control of the situation (no matter how little control they have during the experience). They are not "consenting" to rape in the traditional sense of the word, rather they are exposing themselves to the possibility of it deliberately."
I am talking about this as PLAY, ie ARRANGING to be in that position (as I said usually with "known" assailants). I am NOT impying that they go out in short skirts in the hope it will happen. I am sorry if anyone has misunderstood this context as I thought it was fairly obvious, but just to make sure all of those who can't understand that part of it or put it into it's proper context I thought i would explain it.

italianguy · 03-16-2008, 06:43 PM

Sierra you scare me very much. You mean that scared womens after rape come to a feminist crisis center where you blame males for all the evil in this society?

Poor women. They will never have a good relationship with a man. They will become lesbian ballbusting feminists.

touriquet2001 · 03-16-2008, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by italianguy

Sierra you scare me very much. You mean that scared womens after rape come to a feminist crisis center where you blame males for all the evil in this society?

Poor womens. They will never have a good relationship with a man. They will become lesbian ballbusting feminists.

just wondering

where do you get all of that from her post up there ?

i mean other than ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sierra

I counsel rape victims

and ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by italianguy

Sierra you scare me very much.

Sierra · 03-16-2008, 07:39 PM

*Taking a deep breath and counting to ten*

Ok, I'm going to assume that we have a misunderstanding. As you might surmise, this is not a subject that I find easy to be completely objective about. One thing you may want to consider is that if two people have trouble reading your "clear basic English", it might not be so clear as you think. Sternenlied and I are both literate and intelligent women.

You're quite right, by the way. That one statement IS what got me keyed up. I did not understand the role play part. I still disagree with you, but not to the same degree or with the same vehemence.

I get the impression that you are a bit defensive about what was said, so it's probably best that I leave the rest of this string to others.

As for Italianguy, I just ignore him. He's a one-trick pony with only one "insult" and whose ignorance truly knows no boundaries. Not worth the effort to notice.

Jasmine · 03-16-2008, 08:59 PM

I agree with Sierra and with Stern. I have worked with Adult Survivors of Abuse and Rape Victims and these two women are right on.

Women who have been victims sometimes give nonverbal body language that they are victims. Predators are good at picking up on these signals. That may be where the belief comes that women put themselves in dangerous situations comes from.

I believe that rape fantasies are a way for former rape victims to assert control. We have limits, we chose with whom we play.

italianguy · 03-16-2008, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sierra

As for Italianguy, I just ignore him. He's a one-trick pony with only one "insult" and whose ignorance truly knows no boundaries. Not worth the effort to notice.

I have the impression that you don't know how to reply. Maybe it's easy to convince a scared women with no other help in the most fragile moment of her life that "it was cause of patriarchy" but not an intelligent man like me.

ChiTownHoney · 03-16-2008, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trustme

Those who have fantasies about being raped will deliberately put themselves in a position to be raped (usually by "known" assailants), and when it happens they will get something from the experience, it is a selfish act on their part to satisfy an urge they have. In this sense the person being raped is actually in control of the situation (no matter how little control they have during the experience). They are not "consenting" to rape in the traditional sense of the word, rather they are exposing themselves to the possibility of it deliberately.

This sounds a little like me. I know that it is very dangerous to do it, and I even made a thread about it on this forum about a year ago. However, I do NOT think that its a "selfish act" on the part of the woman who desired the "rape". If the woman (like myself) seeks the danger, rush, and sexual satisfaction of driving a man to actually "rape" her, why is it selfish? Do you feel sorry for the man who actually believes he is raping her? Someone brought that up in the previous thread, that its not fair for the man, because if he believes he is actually raping the woman, he will go through mental trauma. I dont think it matters how the man feels because in his mind, he IS committing a crime. Both parties get what they want. Maybe the woman is using the man to get her thrill, but who cares?

it has yet to happen to me, but I seek that. It is with a handpicked "assailant" and I do like the danger and the thrill. Whats so selfish about that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trustme

I have councelled more than one person on this aspect, girls who have been raped for real but still fantasize about it and cannot understand why they do when the experience of being raped for real was so traumatising. By putting it into this context of the "sefishness" of the experience I have helped them seperate the two events as being totally different in context and therefore unrelated to each other and this has helped them come to terms with their desires versus their experiences.

I hope this helps some people to understand the "consentual rape" discussion and put it into some kind of context emotionally and sexually.

I believe woman who have been raped in the past have fantasies because it gives them their control back. They are able to control what happens, what goes on...so it is actually pretty related.

Sternenlied · 03-17-2008, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrustMe

...which was to create a very real distinction between the fantasy and the act. I sincerely hope you do not councel your clients that there is no distinction because to the intelligent world at least there is a very real distinction between the fantasy and crime.

This statement alone is hilarious as it is once more unnecessary.
Of course some people are just plain stupid but I've never met anyone (women) who weren't able to make that distinction. By implying women who have rape fantasies (as well as the female members on RB) need to be explained this to you're not "helping" them, you're saying they're stupid.
Also your entire "conclusions" by which you intent to help them leave out women who have been raped after already having rape fantasies, women who haven't been raped at all, women who have been raped by family members or other people they trust, ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrustMe

which is personal gain sexually, or selfishness.

In your opinion.
I am not saying your opinion isn't something you're not entitled to, I'm merely stating I disagree with it and I consider it to be dangerous telling rape victims stuff like this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by italianguy

Sierra you scare me very much. You mean that scared womens after rape come to a feminist crisis center where you blame males for all the evil in this society?
Poor women. They will never have a good relationship with a man. They will become lesbian ballbusting feminists.

So Sierra scares you very much but still you say she is the scared one here?
Funny thing ...
You obviously miss the whole point and function of a womens crisis centre (where I worked during university) but then again ... considering your previous statements on this board ... who ever thought you actually would get it?
You really have a fascination with "lesbian ballbusting feminists" have you not? What happened, little one? Do you need to tell yourself that because intelligent, self-confident, beautiful women have no interest in you?
Poor little man.

Quote:

Originally Posted by italianguy

but not an intelligent man like me.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

touriquet2001 · 03-17-2008, 03:05 AM

he's not worth the effort Phantom , and he sure isn't smart enough to figure it out , even with being hit by the 2x4 .

SirSinister · 03-17-2008, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phantom

â€œIt is wiser to find out than to supposeâ€ - Mark Twain

â€œKnowing a great deal is not the same as being smart; intelligence is not information alone but also judgment, the manner in which information is collected and usedâ€ - Dr. Carl Sagan

Not getting my point yet?
Ok, here is my favorite:

â€œA woman's appetite is twice that of a man's; her sexual desire, four times; her intelligence, eight timesâ€

I would quit this obsession with Sierra, while you still have any dignity left......oh never mind, I saw your latest post.....it's already gone

Damn......

Eight times?.. nuh uh... no way...

Come git some Sierra... lol

Sternenlied · 03-17-2008, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by italianguy

They will become lesbian ballbusting feminists.

We're actually creating the new and improved Women v.2.0 so we can forge the ultimate matriarch society where we put men to use at stuff they're good at (physical labour) and keep them for sexual pleasure now and then as well as sperm extraction for procreation. The perfect society!
... where little, useless creeps like you are put to sleep like rapid dogs!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSinister

Eight times?.. nuh uh... no way...

At least!

somedude · 03-17-2008, 03:27 AM

You giving us guys a hard time again Stern

Sternenlied · 03-17-2008, 04:11 AM

What are you saying, puny man?
You wouldn't want to live like that?

Wouldn't you love having me as your undisputed, allmighty goddess?

Don't worry ... my reign would be pleasant for you and your kind. As pleasant as the execution of failures would be quick and painless!

somedude · 03-17-2008, 04:14 AM

Well having you as my undisputed almighty goddess sounds fun!

I mean you definitely are a goddess

03-16-2008, 03:48 PM	#1
Trustme Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 12 Reputation: 46	When it isn't a fantasy.... A good friend of mine who I indulge in rape fantasies with quite regularly (physically as well as intellectually) had someone try and rape her for real a few nights ago. It open the debate about "Well surely it's what you've always wanted!", but it definately wasn't! In trying to help her come to terms with this dichotomy, I have explained things as follows: Those who have fantasies about being raped will deliberately put themselves in a position to be raped (usually by "known" assailants), and when it happens they will get something from the experience, it is a selfish act on their part to satisfy an urge they have. In this sense the person being raped is actually in control of the situation (no matter how little control they have during the experience). They are not "consenting" to rape in the traditional sense of the word, rather they are exposing themselves to the possibility of it deliberately. When they do NOT deliberately put themselves in that position and do not desire it it becomes a totally selfish act on the part of the rapist and the victim neither desires it NOR do they derive any personal satisfaction or growth from the experience, rather a large part of their psyche is taken from them forcibly. I have councelled more than one person on this aspect, girls who have been raped for real but still fantasize about it and cannot understand why they do when the experience of being raped for real was so traumatising. By putting it into this context of the "sefishness" of the experience I have helped them seperate the two events as being totally different in context and therefore unrelated to each other and this has helped them come to terms with their desires versus their experiences. I hope this helps some people to understand the "consentual rape" discussion and put it into some kind of context emotionally and sexually.

03-16-2008, 05:22 PM	#2
MarcEdeSade Amoralist Libertine Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 391 Reputation: 1262	it surely is a fascinating thing to expore from a psychological standpoint... but there are other, less plausable fantasies that also excite. Fantasizing is an excellent way to exercise emotions that we don't experience day-to-day. (and in some respect, so might dreaming also be) similar to going to scary movies. In our safe-secure world, we're very rarely frightened. We enjoy the fantasy of being scared "shitless" but in reality might be emotionally scarred by the experience. __________________ Pain is inevitable....suffering is optional

03-16-2008, 06:43 PM	#8
italianguy Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 126 Reputation: -972	Sierra you scare me very much. You mean that scared womens after rape come to a feminist crisis center where you blame males for all the evil in this society? Poor women. They will never have a good relationship with a man. They will become lesbian ballbusting feminists. Last edited by italianguy; 03-16-2008 at 10:07 PM.

03-16-2008, 07:39 PM	#10
Sierra Privileged Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Northern California Posts: 1,625 Reputation: 129196	Taking a deep breath and counting to ten Ok, I'm going to assume that we have a misunderstanding. As you might surmise, this is not a subject that I find easy to be completely objective about. One thing you may want to consider is that if two people have trouble reading your "clear basic English", it might not be so clear as you think. Sternenlied and I are both literate and intelligent women. You're quite right, by the way. That one statement IS what got me keyed up. I did not understand the role play part. I still disagree with you, but not to the same degree or with the same vehemence. I get the impression that you are a bit defensive about what was said, so it's probably best that I leave the rest of this string to others. As for Italianguy, I just ignore him. He's a one-trick pony with only one "insult" and whose ignorance truly knows no boundaries. Not worth the effort to notice. __________________ Although the most incisive judges of the witches and even the witches themselves were convinced of the guilt of witchcraft, this guilt nevertheless did not exist. Thus it is with all guilt.

03-17-2008, 03:27 AM	#18
somedude W.I.R. and Marshal Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Way out West!!!! Posts: 8,566 Reputation: 124981	You giving us guys a hard time again Stern __________________ I'm a pervert and proud of it!

03-16-2008, 06:28 PM	#5
older and wiser Privileged Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: England Posts: 297 Reputation: 1024	Well said Sierra, real rape is a vile act, role playing between 2 trusting and consenting adults is something else and in no way related. I think Trustme is almost of the view that any girl who goes out in a short skirt is 'asking' for it

03-16-2008, 06:29 PM	#6
Trustme Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 12 Reputation: 46	There seems to be a HUGE amount of misunderstanding of my post here, although I'm not certain why as my post was pretty straightforward but for those who are having trouble reading basic English I would offer the following addendum, just to clear everything up: 1. NOWHERE in my post did I even IMPLY that ANYONE who fantasises about rape secretly wants it to happen, in fact I was at pains to point out the EXACT OPPOSITE. 2. When I use the word SELFISH, taken in the context of my post that is exactly what it is, the person who arranges for their rape fantasies to be realised in PLAY is thinking of what they will get out of it, they certainly should not be doing it for someone elses benefit (excluding mutual benefit before anyone picks any holes in that argument). You appear to be implying that I am saying anyone who enjoys rape play is a selfish person, whereas (if you'd read the post properly) you would know I was talking about the motivation for seeking it, which is personal gain sexually, or selfishness. Selfishness is not a bad thing contextually, it is merely a motivation. 3. No woman "asks for it". You have totally confused me talking about a person indulging in PLAY rape and a person being actually raped. That is the difference between being in PLAY (ie "putting yourself in a controlled situation to be raped in play") and being just raped when you expressly have not consented to or seek it, which is never sought and never justifiable. 4. I have every sympathy for what has happened for you and every respect for what you do, but I think you need to reread my post properly, as with the other poster who entirely missed the point of my post, which was to create a very real distinction between the fantasy and the act. I sincerely hope you do not councel your clients that there is no distinction because to the intelligent world at least there is a very real distinction between the fantasy and crime. I have reread my post and I'm afraid I can still not see how you could both miss the point so monumentally, but at least it has started a debate which can do nothing but good as long as everyone keeps their heads and doesn't start flaming people for offering an opinion.

03-16-2008, 06:39 PM	#7
Trustme Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 12 Reputation: 46	I think on rereading my post that the problem seems to stem from this paragraph : "Those who have fantasies about being raped will deliberately put themselves in a position to be raped (usually by "known" assailants), and when it happens they will get something from the experience, it is a selfish act on their part to satisfy an urge they have. In this sense the person being raped is actually in control of the situation (no matter how little control they have during the experience). They are not "consenting" to rape in the traditional sense of the word, rather they are exposing themselves to the possibility of it deliberately." I am talking about this as PLAY, ie ARRANGING to be in that position (as I said usually with "known" assailants). I am NOT impying that they go out in short skirts in the hope it will happen. I am sorry if anyone has misunderstood this context as I thought it was fairly obvious, but just to make sure all of those who can't understand that part of it or put it into it's proper context I thought i would explain it.

03-16-2008, 08:59 PM	#11
Jasmine Privileged Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 2,352 Reputation: 20045	I agree with Sierra and with Stern. I have worked with Adult Survivors of Abuse and Rape Victims and these two women are right on. Women who have been victims sometimes give nonverbal body language that they are victims. Predators are good at picking up on these signals. That may be where the belief comes that women put themselves in dangerous situations comes from. I believe that rape fantasies are a way for former rape victims to assert control. We have limits, we chose with whom we play.

03-17-2008, 03:05 AM	#15
touriquet2001 please delete Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 3,805 Reputation: 35886	he's not worth the effort Phantom , and he sure isn't smart enough to figure it out , even with being hit by the 2x4 .

03-17-2008, 04:11 AM	#19
Sternenlied Unknown Entity Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Niflheim Posts: 2,427 Reputation: 77819	What are you saying, puny man? You wouldn't want to live like that? Wouldn't you love having me as your undisputed, allmighty goddess? Don't worry ... my reign would be pleasant for you and your kind. As pleasant as the execution of failures would be quick and painless! __________________ The Life and Death of Sam Crow - How the Sons of Anarchy lost their way

03-17-2008, 04:14 AM	#20
somedude W.I.R. and Marshal Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Way out West!!!! Posts: 8,566 Reputation: 124981	Well having you as my undisputed almighty goddess sounds fun! I mean you definitely are a goddess __________________ I'm a pervert and proud of it!