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Old 01-20-2018, 07:43 PM   #581
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It would have been a "final solution" as Hitler may have described it. Still, Maggie didn't actually do it. Ethnic cleansing and a hard border.

Thing is, what happens to the non-Catholic population if Ireland is ever "united"? I would trust an Irish government no more than Sinn Fein seems to trust the British government.
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Old 01-20-2018, 08:49 PM   #582
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your answer would be found in what happened to the unionist minority, of both religions, in the Free State, and eventually the Republic after independence. Basically nothing. No reprisals, no confiscations of estates, and the political freedom to actually lobby for the return of the union. Although by the early 1930's unionism had run its course politically in the south.
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Old 01-20-2018, 09:26 PM   #583
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It's somewhat simplistic to cast the troubles as a sectarian conflict. Certainly there aspects of it based in religion, but this was primarily on one side. The Catholic church in Ireland was, in some respects still is, a very conservative organization. Catholic doctrine has more in common with the views of the DUP than Sinn Fein. There were periods in the last century when IRA membership would earn you an excommunication.

Ulster Unionists, and the Orange Order in particular are closely aligned with Protestantism. Irish Republicanism had no such relationship with the Roman Catholic church. The IRA could be called many things, terrorists perhaps, Marxists, at least until the split with the officials. And certainly former elements engage in criminal enterprise for fun and profit today. But not sectarian.

The founding father of modern Irish republicanism, Theobold Wolfe Tone was a protestant. Protestants played a significant role in republican activity thru the next two centuries. That most republicans in the north today are Catholics is more coincidental than intentional. Martin McGuiness was in fact a devout Catholic, he was much more the exception than the rule.

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Old 01-21-2018, 05:01 AM   #584
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The sectarian aspect can't be ignored though, because republican and unionist ARE more or less aligned along side Catholic and Protestant faiths respectively. Coincidence or not, that is how it is.

Which is where Sinn Feins problem lies, and I have mentioned this before. The represent a religiously conservative community. I may not understand religion, but I do understand white working class people, and the average voter in Bogside or West Belfast is not going to give a flying fuck about gay marriage. Having worked with a lot of Welsh lads over the years, it is my experience that language is not a high priority either. None of them speak the language they were taught at school, not even amongst themselves.

I'm not suggesting support for Irish unification is going to go away amongst Catholics in Northern Ireland, but they are going to see themselves losing out through their support for Sinn Fein and its putting politics before the needs and wishes of the voters.

Ultimately people want jobs and security, and at present Sinn Fein are providing neither of those things in the six counties.
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Old 01-24-2018, 05:26 AM   #585
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Originally Posted by tom8517 View Post
your answer would be found in what happened to the unionist minority, of both religions, in the Free State, and eventually the Republic after independence. Basically nothing. No reprisals, no confiscations of estates, and the political freedom to actually lobby for the return of the union.
I'm surprised the estates and other property (which were basically stolen by English/British landlords) were not confiscated back by an Irish government at some stage. I wonder if Irish citizens are still paying rent to descendants of those landlords?
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Old 01-24-2018, 06:13 AM   #586
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Mostly Scottish landlords as it goes.

No idea how things went in Ireland, but post 1918 the UK saw a gradual decline in the aristocracy, land and assets being sold off.
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Old 01-24-2018, 01:53 PM   #587
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The pre independence southern aristocracy were Anglo Irish, primarily of English descent, with their religious affiliation being to the Church of Ireland. This in contrast to the north, where the unionist population was ,and is,mainly of Scottish origin and Presbyterian.

while the Anglo Irish upper class did tend to view the native Irish as unwashed, uncouth and unreliable, this is not really that different than the view of the upper classes in any country. There was not the rabid anti catholic bias one sees in the orange order. The loyalty of the Anglo Irish to the crown was political and economic more than religious.

The 1919 to 1921 campaign lacked the religious overtones of the modern troubles. There were reprisals during the campaign, if an Irish cottage of a republican was destroyed by the British, the IRA would retaliate by burning a manor house of the nobility.

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Old 01-24-2018, 10:40 PM   #588
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"while the Anglo Irish upper class did tend to view the native Irish as unwashed, uncouth and unreliable, this is not really that different than the view of the upper classes in any country"

As I have already pointed out in this thread, peasant and working class people on mainland Britain were treated no differently than their counterparts on Ireland.
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Old 01-24-2018, 11:46 PM   #589
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Apparently the new deadline for Stormont to get its collective arse in gear is 8th February. Meet the new dealine, same as the old deadline?
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Old 01-27-2018, 06:20 PM   #590
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Óglaigh na hÉireann, one of the principal dissident republican organizations has announced it will suspend its' "armed campaign against the British state". Considering their "armed campaign" to date has been petty vandalism punctuated with an occasional murder, probably a good decision.

pronounced ogg lee ni erin. Literal translation is volunteers of Ireland. Its what the IRA called itself in Irish.

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Old 01-28-2018, 12:36 AM   #591
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OK, good. Can we all stop paying taxes now?

Talking of taxes, what I want to know is if as the British Broadcasting Corporation has decided that men are only good enough to earn the same money as women, and all the men now have to take a pay cut, do we in turn get to pay less television tax?

Or does the cost of covering the new inquest in to the Birmingham pubs bombing negate that?
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Old 01-28-2018, 02:00 PM   #592
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The BBCs Northern Ireland website page is currently reporting on what families of those killed during the troubles think of the current political situation in the province. Amongst those interviewed is Eugene Reavey whose brothers were murdered by the UVF in 1976. He says that he no longer has any faith in politics.

Alan McBride, whose wife was murdered by an IRA bomb, describes the situation as "shameful".
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Old 02-02-2018, 03:02 AM   #593
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I could be wrong, but there seems to be some movement towards restoring power sharing. DUP and Sinn Fein are talking, the SDLP is pissed off the negotiations are not public. Get the fuck over that.

Irish language and same sex marriage advocates met with the new Northern Ireland secretary. Oh, and the representatives of the three or four people fluent in Ulster-Scots also got a hearing.
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Old 02-02-2018, 05:26 AM   #594
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Great! Three languages will soon swallow up that extra billion quid!

Same sex marriage advocates have also met with the DUP. The official line has shifted slightly, DUP assembly members will not be required to vote against same sex marriage, and the DUP will not use their veto privilege against it.

Still, these things ought to be matters for the debating chamber, not an obstruction to assembling it.
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Old 02-03-2018, 02:31 AM   #595
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A little more history, a radio speech on RTE in 1969 by Taoiseach(teesha) Jack Lynch.

It is clear now that the present situation cannot be allowed to continue. It is evident also that the Stormont government is no longer in control of the situation. Indeed, the present situation is the inevitable outcome of the policies pursued for decades by successive Stormont governments. It is clear also that the Irish Government can no longer stand by and see innocent people injured and perhaps worse. It is obvious that the RUC is no longer accepted as an impartial police force. Neither would the employment of British troops be acceptable nor would they be likely to restore peaceful conditions, certainly not in the long term. The Irish Government have, therefore, requested the British Government to apply immediately to the United Nations for the urgent dispatch of a Peace-Keeping Force to the Six Counties of Northern Ireland and have instructed the Permanent Representative to the United Nations to inform the Secretary General of this request. We have also asked the British Government to see to it that police attacks on the people of Derry should cease immediately.

This was 1969, the provos did not yet exist. The civil rights movement was not republican, or even particularly nationalist. There was no talk of reunification, the protestors were asking to be treated the same as any other citizen of the United Kingdom.

Had Lynch's suggestion of an impartial peace keeping force been taken, the situation may well have been settled in a few months. The provisional IRA would never have been born, the officials would have stayed in their offices debating Marxist theory, and over 3000 people would still be alive.

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Old 02-03-2018, 08:34 AM   #596
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Ah, the United Nations! Endlessly making resolutions about Israel that nobody takes any notice of. Does the UN actually have a purpose, apart from costing money to run? How can you be so sure that sending in "peace keeping" troops would have been the solution? You only have to look to Bosnia for evidence against that idea.

I dated for months a former citizen of Bosnia Herzogovinia, she can never return home because home no longer exists, Her home village was removed from the map whilst United Nations peace keeping troops were stationed only 2 miles away, they stood by and did nothing. Most of her male relatives are dead. Her mother was beaten, she was raped.

Her only surviving male relatives were an uncle that worked at the Yugoslavian embassy in Tripoli, and a brother who she didn't know for years if he was dead or alive because he was caught up in the siege of Sarajevo.

So yeah, go team United Nations!
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Old 02-03-2018, 11:35 AM   #597
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So instead, the British army was deployed in force. Within two years 14 civilians shot dead in Derry, 11 more in Belfast. The army participates in the mass arrests of British citizens without charge or trial. Drove the nationalist population into the waiting arms of the IRA. And the rest, as they say, is history.
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Old 02-03-2018, 08:32 PM   #598
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I know, tricky situation isn't it? Foreign interference in local disputes doesn't seem to work though. Just look at Syria! Or Libya for that matter. I'm sure many are glad to see Ghaddafi gone, but what happened there was essentially a war crime, he was buggered to death, and now we see black Africans being openly enslaved and traded there.

If you're going to be oppressed, may as well be by the oppressor you know save all the additional heartache!
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Old 02-03-2018, 09:52 PM   #599
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Ok, let's get "real" about the notion of Irish independence.

Ireland was never a united, independent political entity.

The republic as it is now fought a civil war and gained sovereignty. Since then it has been heavily reliant on trade and freedom of movement with the United Kingdom for its survival.

The republic followed the United Kingdom in to the now European Union, in order to preserve the freedom of trade and movement of labour upon which it is so reliant.

Now the United Kingdom is leaving the European Union. The UK is a net contributor to the EU budget. The republic benefits from the UK contribution, and politically, the republic supports Irish membership of the European Union.

Ireland is subject to European parliamentary law.

I would enjoy seeing some one come in here and explain how Ireland won its independence!
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Don't think.... FEEL!

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I went back in time and voted for Hitler.


Pouring oil on troubled waters since 2008. Then lighting a fucking match.
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Old 02-04-2018, 10:50 AM   #600
FuckingRotter
The Fist of Fury.
 
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As Gerry Adams departs from political life, he has given his backing for Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn to be priminister of the United Kingdom. Another nail in the coffin for the Labour party I reckon!
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THE WESTCOUNTRY SHALL RISE AGAIN!

Yay! It's pink!

Don't think.... FEEL!

We're Englishmen, and we came here, to rape your women and drink your beer.

I went back in time and voted for Hitler.


Pouring oil on troubled waters since 2008. Then lighting a fucking match.
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