What's your say on asstr ?

[Emily Johnson]

Originally Posted by jack-the-ripa

I wonder why it hasn't been shut down by now. There's pedo out there...

Yes, it does include pedo, but NOT illegal child pornography.

Illegal child porn requires the exploitation and abuse of REAL children, not fantasy ones.

And guess what?

Fantasizing about rape does not make you a rapist!
And it takes more than just fantasy to make someone a child molester.

Pedo is not my thing, but it seems to me that saying someone is sick for fantasizing about pedo, torture, or violent sex, while fantasizing about rape, is a little odd. To much finger-pointing and splitting hairs for me.

[jack-the-ripa]

Originally Posted by Emily Johnson

Fantasizing about rape does not make you a rapist!
And it takes more than just fantasy to make someone a child molester.

Pedo is not my thing, but it seems to me that saying someone is sick for fantasizing about pedo, torture, or violent sex, while fantasizing about rape, is a little odd. To much finger-pointing and splitting hairs for me.

Now's my turn to say GO GIRL !

What's more, in the middle ages at 18 girls used to be considered a bit old for marriage. At 18 girls used to have at least one baby and most used to marry at 14-15... Marrying at 12 wasn't considered too much of an unussual thing back then. And hey, weren't the medieval times the period when some of the greatest phylosophical and cultural books were written?

[Joanna]

Originally Posted by cleanfun4all

So, if I fantasize about raping a 15 year old, then I'm a sick motherfucker, but if I wait until she's 18 to fantasize about raping her, then that's okay?

technically yes , now my post there is more a explantion of peoples reaction to sex including sex fantasy with underage people than a personal judgement or whatever .

Now you can make arguments along the lines of whats the difference between fantasizing about sex with a 15 year old and a 18 year old .
but that can be turned around and it can be asked if theres no difference then why is it even nessasary to fantasize about having sex with a 15 year old rather than with a 18 year old?

If one feels a need to fantasize about abusing a 15 or even worse still someone much younger then there is a difference isn't there?

I would venture then that it must have something to do with a desire to destroy or defile innocence younger equals more innocent.

you also have to take in that peoples reaction about pedophilla is emotion rather than logic based most moral values are.

its similar to if you ask dog lovers about dog eating in Asia we hate it and no amount of comparisons to eating pigs will change that.

its because we feel a emotional conection to dogs and so are naturally protective towards them .

its the same with pedophilla most people are emotionally protective towards children so they hate to see anyone abusing them even in fantasy pretty much in the same way that if a crush enthusiast were to write about crushing kittens animal lovers would hate them for it.

most morality is emotion rather than logic based even most wars are fought on emotion based beliefs even who gets defined as a terrorist or not is defined by beliefs based on emotions rather than by logic.

Now personally I have no maternal instincts at all if I see kids I just want to kick them ...(lol ok thats exageratted just a joke so the debate doesn't get way to heavy) but its true that I am not overly emotional about kids I just find it weird that people would feel sexually attracted to kids .

I can't really see why anyone would fantasize about having sex with a adult looking child why not just fantasize about a adult unless its really about wanting to destroy innocence which is just plain evil .

Of course it can be argued that rape fantasy is also evil but again it comes down to the fact that the fantasy about rape has a more "natural" feeling than one about children has .

see rape is actually natural before we became civilized it was normal that men would take sex if they could , men have evolved and become moral and so quell their natural instincts.

A desire to fuck children is unnatural and so its considered more freakish and illicits a stronger emotional ant reaction.

Also take into account that its natural that most people feel protective towards children so its emotionally natural that people especially those that are parents will have a very strong anti reaction towards those who are seen as desiring or even fantasizing about bringing harm to children.

[Becka]

Originally Posted by jack-the-ripa

What's more, in the middle ages at 18 girls used to be considered a bit old for marriage. At 18 girls used to have at least one baby and most used to marry at 14-15... Marrying at 12 wasn't considered too much of an unussual thing back then.

Of course the average age of marriage was lower. With the average life expectancy in the Middle Ages being around 35, girls married earlier, usually not long after becoming biologically women. I am not saying that people were old and died at 35 but that the infant mortality rate was somewhere around 30% (50% if you ask some people). Along with that you have up to 20% of women dying in childbirth or of related complication/illnesses. It only makes sense that marriage would be happening earlier, especially since the sole role of women at the time was to have children.

Originally Posted by jack-the-ripa

And hey, weren't the medieval times the period when some of the greatest phylosophical and cultural books were written?

No..this period of time is not know for great philosophy and culture...that is the Renaissance. The Middle Ages is known for the Crusades, the Black Death, the fall of the Roman Empire, the Church's rise to power, and the occasional Viking or Mongol invasion.

Not to say that there wasn't philosophy, but you find it to be more theological, such as Thomas Aquinas, rather than what you find in the periods before and after the Middle Ages. Of course, in the age of the Inquisition when many ideas were viewed as heresy who can blame them for sticking to a theological realm. But to call this period of time and age of culture and philosophy is to forget that over half of the time period is historically referred to as the Dark Ages.

B.

[tom8517]

Originally Posted by jack-the-ripa

Now's my turn to say GO GIRL !

What's more, in the middle ages at 18 girls used to be considered a bit old for marriage. At 18 girls used to have at least one baby and most used to marry at 14-15... Marrying at 12 wasn't considered too much of an unussual thing back then. And hey, weren't the medieval times the period when some of the greatest phylosophical and cultural books were written?

girls married at 12 because they were old at twentyfive and dead before 40. And no the middle ages were not really know as a great literary period, they weren't called the dark ages for nothing.

But as to the broader question of ages in stories, it's not really a free speech issue, its a matter of personal standards and tastes. There is no such thing as abosolute free speech, there have always been limits on it, the famous yelling fire in a crowded theater example, and many others.

All these forums have rules, set either by the site owners, or group agreement among the mods/admins. Personally, I find stories involving children under 18 distasteful. Are they illegal? I'm not that wll versed on the law, but no probably they are not. But if I have a say in making the rules, and I do on a site I admin at, the rule is no under 18, period. Now, you have two choices, scream about your lost rights, and the denial of free speech, or leave and go somewhere more suited to your personal tastes. I had that choice a few months ago on another site that did permit under age, and I left.

Another example, if you are eating dinner in a four star restuarant, and you are loud, half drunk, telling dirty jokes and offering to buy a round of tequila shooters for the people at the table next to you, there is an excellent chance you are going to get tossed out of there. Have they deprived you of your rights? No, and whats more exactly the same conduct in a more rough and tumble kind of a bar won't even draw a second look. But you have to respect the rules of the place, or forum you are in.

And its also valid that there is no real difference between a 16 yo or an 18 yo. How about between a 14 yo and 16 yo, how about 12? If we turn over enough rocks I'm sure we can find a few who get off on toddlers, or infants. It's not real child pornography, no real toddlers were harmed. But I'm going to guess that no one here would want to read a story about that. And if thats the case, a line must be drawn, and an age limit established. So, where to draw that imaginary line? For me it just makes sense to make it 18, it is arbitary? yeah, but it does seem to work well and prevents confusion as to what or what not is permissable.

[Joanna]

Originally Posted by Emily Johnson

Yes, it does include pedo, but NOT illegal child pornography.

Illegal child porn requires the exploitation and abuse of REAL children, not fantasy ones.

And guess what?

Fantasizing about rape does not make you a rapist!
And it takes more than just fantasy to make someone a child molester.

Pedo is not my thing, but it seems to me that saying someone is sick for fantasizing about pedo, torture, or violent sex, while fantasizing about rape, is a little odd. To much finger-pointing and splitting hairs for me.

thats questionable since it could be argued that by nature most men are rapists and its the evoloution of moral values that enable humans to overcome their base nature and base desires.

but yes your right its possible to fantasize about being a rapist without wanting to do the act or be a rapist for real .

and yes it could be argued that its possible to fantasize about being a child molester without actually being one.

it can also be argued that all the fetishes on this site would be seen as sick by "squares"

But that argument ignores the fact that the act of being sexually attracted to children and being a pedophile is considered the sickest of sick things in itself.
Even in prisons that are full of evil people and were the general population accepts murderers and rapists the pedo is still hated and looked down on and killing one makes a person a hero.

yes its possible to fantasize about being a child molester without being a molester it isn't possible to have fantasies about having sex with children without being a for real pedophile though.

And pedos will just have to accept that even in places were other forms of lowness might be considered acceptable the pedo will always be seen as the lowest and most hated form of life.
Because when it comes down to it pedos wish to defile what most want to protect (children) .
And thats a emotional reaction so theres no amount of logic based arguments or defences that are going to change that.

[Joanna]

Oh also its kind of erronous to say that pedo fantasies should be allowed here or anywhere else because its a freedom of speech issue.

Haven't people like that best chinese guy and others here be banned because it was considered their posts were too racist?

So it can be argued that there really is no such thing as total freedom of speech and every forum makes a value judgement when it comes to what it allows and doesn't allow.

some would say for instance there is more freedom of speech when it comes to race on a racist forum like stormfront than almost any other forum including this one.

if the freedom of speech argument is used to defend allowing pedo stuff then it follows that everyone has to be allowed to say whatever they want no matter what kind of friction it causes.

Maybe those who think that pedo is cool should set up forums of their own that are dedicated to it since the whole freedom of speech argument really doesn't cover or justify it.

[Joanna]

Originally Posted by jack-the-ripa

Now's my turn to say GO GIRL !

What's more, in the middle ages at 18 girls used to be considered a bit old for marriage. At 18 girls used to have at least one baby and most used to marry at 14-15... Marrying at 12 wasn't considered too much of an unussual thing back then. And hey, weren't the medieval times the period when some of the greatest phylosophical and cultural books were written?

With all due respect there is absoloutly no logic to that argument at all.

In the middle ages it was also common to burn people at the stake as witches it was also common to torture and execute anyone that said christianity was not true or for doing anything that the church did not approve of.

Does that mean that those things should also be allowed today or not considered wrong?
We are supposed to have evolved mentally since then so what was acceptable then is irrelevant now.

Slavery was legal and common in the US during a far more recent period than the middle ages so does that mean slavery wasn't wrong ?

[Ntense]

Sooooo, what's the moral take on pedo if a 40-something woman wants to act the little girl? She's not looking at abusing a child, she's abusing herself or playing with memories and past problems. Is that wrong, or (in my mind) just extremely unsettling? I haven't been able to successfully reconcile it 'cos her partner WOULD need to be willing to play along, and there's the rub.

In this case, it's probably more along the line of therapy than any kind of kiddie porn, although it's still causing me unusual amounts of stress trying to deal with it.

(I realize I'm somewhat diverting the topic... sorry)

I’m starting to remember why I avoid discussions on this subject.

First off, on the subject of what is posted on websites. Yes, in the US at least, it’s a free speech issue. Mere text is not illegal, regardless of its content, because no actual children are harmed. A story about the rape and murder of an infant is not illegal. A video of a 17 year old having consensual sex is.

But that aside, you don’t have freedom of speech on a website that someone else is paying for. I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve had that particular argument with someone. You don’t have a “right” to come on to a website that I’m paying for and post things that I find offensive, anymore than you have the right to come into my home and say things that I find offensive.

It’s been my experience that most sexually oriented websites have a rule of nothing under 18, including stories. It’s a clear cut and easy to enforce rule. Although, to varying degrees, I’m an admin on several sites, I don’t actually own any of them and so I don’t have the final say on what is and isn’t allowed. The only forum I actually run on my own, has a rule that says no under 18 stories. I didn’t make that rule, it was put in place by the owner. If I ever take over the forum completely I would probably change the rule to something like under 18 stories are subject to admin approval.

I think another reason so many sites stay away from underage stories is because of the very intense feelings that a lot of people have on the subject. We’re seeing some of that in this thread.

First, fantasies and actions on two different things. Fantasizing about having sex with someone underage doesn’t mean that you would actually do it. It is I think very analogous to rape fantasies. From time to time, there are discussions on forums like this one about whether or not you would commit rape given a certain hypothetical situation, such as if it was legal, if you knew you could get away with it, etc. For me, the answer to that question is no, I wouldn’t. So, if I can fantasize about raping an 18 year old, without actually doing it for real or even wanting to, then why can’t I fantasize about a 15 year old without it meaning that I actually want to do it?

As for the question of why not just fantasize about someone older, well in my case, the answer is, I don’t make up some fantasy object in my mind. Most of the time, the object of my fantasies are people who I know in real life. One such example was a girl who was a frequent customer at a store where I used to work. She was rebellious party girl with a very unhappy home life. I could have easily had sex with her, if I’d wanted to do it, but I didn’t. Again, fantasies and actions are two different things.

Another point that I would like to make and one that is almost always missed during discussions such as this one. The word pedophile is probably the most misused word in contemporary English. A pedophile is someone who’s primary sexual attraction is to children. A child is someone who has not reached puberty. Teenagers are not children and someone who is attracted to teenagers is not a pedophile. That’s what I was getting at before when I said there is precious little difference physical difference between a 16 year old and an 18 year old.

The natural purpose of sex is procreating and so there is absolutely nothing “unnatural” about being attracted to someone who is sexually developed and capable of procreation. In fact, if you’re going to argue on behalf of nature, then the opposite would be true. What is “natural” is to be attracted to someone who is young, healthy and capable of bearing many children. What is “unnatural” is to be attracted to a woman who is too old to have children.

I could cite so many examples, but I will stick with two. One was a girl who I grew up with. By the time she was a young teenager, she had larger breasts, hips, etc than many grown women. Example two, I was at the grocery store tonight and I was checking out the girl who was ringing up my groceries. She was a teenager with a typical teenage girl body. Very slender, narrow hips and virtually no breasts. I’m sure if I posted a picture of this girl on this forum, I would have 7,000 mods posting wanting to know if she was underage. I don’t know exactly how old she is, but I know she’s over 18. She certainly doesn’t look it, but I used to work for the same store she’s working at. The name badges are color coded based on age and so, I could tell from her badge that she was over 18. Also, it would be a violation of federal child labor laws for someone under 18 to be working that late on a school night.

It should also be noted that for most true pedophiles their only sexual attraction is to children. Even if they are attracted to women their age, they are often so lacking in social skills that they simply cannot make any type of meaningful connection with someone their own age.

Originally Posted by Joanna

If one feels a need to fantasize about abusing a 15 or even worse still someone much younger then there is a difference isn't there?

I would venture then that it must have something to do with a desire to destroy or defile innocence younger equals more innocent.

I already answered part of that. I almost always fantasize about people who I actually know and as it happens, I am attracted to a wide variety of women. But I would disagree with your contention that younger equals more innocent. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t. There are 16 year old girls who are doing gang bangs and 18 year old girls who are still virgins. The girl I mentioned earlier who was a customer of mine. She was about as “innocent” as I am.

[jack-the-ripa]

Originally Posted by Becka

No..this period of time is not know for great philosophy and culture...that is the Renaissance. The Middle Ages is known for the Crusades, the Black Death, the fall of the Roman Empire, the Church's rise to power, and the occasional Viking or Mongol invasion.

I don't know what your idea of the Middle Ages is, but my notion of European Middle Ages extends until the late 17th century. And I believe we have Aligieri, Machiavelli, Shakespeare...
And, by the way, according to some historical theoreticians The Middle Ages are not the same as The Dark Age...

[Joanna]

Originally Posted by Ntense

Sooooo, what's the moral take on pedo if a 40-something woman wants to act the little girl? She's not looking at abusing a child, she's abusing herself or playing with memories and past problems. Is that wrong, or (in my mind) just extremely unsettling? I haven't been able to successfully reconcile it 'cos her partner WOULD need to be willing to play along, and there's the rub.

In this case, it's probably more along the line of therapy than any kind of kiddie porn, although it's still causing me unusual amounts of stress trying to deal with it.

(I realize I'm somewhat diverting the topic... sorry)

Ah this scenario came up on second life, Seond life for those who don't know is a virtual reality world were you can pretty much do or recreate anything sexually there that you can in the offline world.

People can also make child avis.

So some people combined the two and created child avis to have sex with adult avis.

A German TV company highlighted the story of a 27 year old who created a child avi to have sex with a forty year old man who used a adult avi.

Dispite the fact that both parties were far over the age of consent in their offline lives the fact that they created a sex with minors scenario in Second lifes virtual world still caused massive amounts of bad publicity and it also got the worlds owners (The Lindens) into a massive panic and even had them creating dracion laws regarding sex acts on there generally.

So even in purely pratical terms even "fantasy sex with underage persons causes problems for a site now second life sex may be considered that little bit more real than purely text based sex since it has visuals but it does show that even when those playing the roles are legal the potrayal of child sex or sex with minors can cause massive bad publicity for a site.

And on secondlifes forum the act of creating a sex with minors scenario was similar to the one here some supported it saying that it should only be the actual age of the participants that counted while most others were grossed out and angered by the mere desire to create that scenario even in fantasy or a acting out scenario.

Morally even among those who are quite liberally minded towards other fetishes the fantasy of having sex with those who are underage creates extremly strong anti feelings in mainstream society the reaction against it is rather strong.

Secondlife reflects this attitude even more than this forum does, second life has stuff on it that even this forum doesn't have ,as well as rape fantasy it also has death play secenarios and extreme torture scenarios and other stuff that would have even many here reaching for a sick bucket.
Yet the one thing there that even the zones dealing with the most extreme fetishes won't allow is any rolplay that deals with sexual acts involving minors.

Morally most peoples reactions to the fantasy of having sex with minors is pretty much the same as it would be towatds someone wanting to do it for real. and its something even those into the most extreme of fetishes find unacceptable.

Though there is that weird grey area that seems to be considered morally acceptable even within mainstream society which is the whole thing with people getting turned on by grown women dressed in school girl uniforms.
can't figure what thats about.

Then again since the reaction towards underage sex is emotion based its not suprizing that a lot of it doesn't make sense.

[Joanna]

Originally Posted by cleanfun4all

I’m starting to remember why I avoid discussions on this subject.

First off, on the subject of what is posted on websites. Yes, in the US at least, it’s a free speech issue. Mere text is not illegal, regardless of its content, because no actual children are harmed. A story about the rape and murder of an infant is not illegal. A video of a 17 year old having consensual sex is.

But that aside, you don’t have freedom of speech on a website that someone else is paying for. I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve had that particular argument with someone. You don’t have a “right” to come on to a website that I’m paying for and post things that I find offensive, anymore than you have the right to come into my home and say things that I find offensive.

It’s been my experience that most sexually oriented websites have a rule of nothing under 18, including stories. It’s a clear cut and easy to enforce rule. Although, to varying degrees, I’m an admin on several sites, I don’t actually own any of them and so I don’t have the final say on what is and isn’t allowed. The only forum I actually run on my own, has a rule that says no under 18 stories. I didn’t make that rule, it was put in place by the owner. If I ever take over the forum completely I would probably change the rule to something like under 18 stories are subject to admin approval.

I think another reason so many sites stay away from underage stories is because of the very intense feelings that a lot of people have on the subject. We’re seeing some of that in this thread.

First, fantasies and actions on two different things. Fantasizing about having sex with someone underage doesn’t mean that you would actually do it. It is I think very analogous to rape fantasies. From time to time, there are discussions on forums like this one about whether or not you would commit rape given a certain hypothetical situation, such as if it was legal, if you knew you could get away with it, etc. For me, the answer to that question is no, I wouldn’t. So, if I can fantasize about raping an 18 year old, without actually doing it for real or even wanting to, then why can’t I fantasize about a 15 year old without it meaning that I actually want to do it?

As for the question of why not just fantasize about someone older, well in my case, the answer is, I don’t make up some fantasy object in my mind. Most of the time, the object of my fantasies are people who I know in real life. One such example was a girl who was a frequent customer at a store where I used to work. She was rebellious party girl with a very unhappy home life. I could have easily had sex with her, if I’d wanted to do it, but I didn’t. Again, fantasies and actions are two different things.

Another point that I would like to make and one that is almost always missed during discussions such as this one. The word pedophile is probably the most misused word in contemporary English. A pedophile is someone who’s primary sexual attraction is to children. A child is someone who has not reached puberty. Teenagers are not children and someone who is attracted to teenagers is not a pedophile. That’s what I was getting at before when I said there is precious little difference physical difference between a 16 year old and an 18 year old.

The natural purpose of sex is procreating and so there is absolutely nothing “unnatural” about being attracted to someone who is sexually developed and capable of procreation. In fact, if you’re going to argue on behalf of nature, then the opposite would be true. What is “natural” is to be attracted to someone who is young, healthy and capable of bearing many children. What is “unnatural” is to be attracted to a woman who is too old to have children.

I could cite so many examples, but I will stick with two. One was a girl who I grew up with. By the time she was a young teenager, she had larger breasts, hips, etc than many grown women. Example two, I was at the grocery store tonight and I was checking out the girl who was ringing up my groceries. She was a teenager with a typical teenage girl body. Very slender, narrow hips and virtually no breasts. I’m sure if I posted a picture of this girl on this forum, I would have 7,000 mods posting wanting to know if she was underage. I don’t know exactly how old she is, but I know she’s over 18. She certainly doesn’t look it, but I used to work for the same store she’s working at. The name badges are color coded based on age and so, I could tell from her badge that she was over 18. Also, it would be a violation of federal child labor laws for someone under 18 to be working that late on a school night.

It should also be noted that for most true pedophiles their only sexual attraction is to children. Even if they are attracted to women their age, they are often so lacking in social skills that they simply cannot make any type of meaningful connection with someone their own age.



I already answered part of that. I almost always fantasize about people who I actually know and as it happens, I am attracted to a wide variety of women. But I would disagree with your contention that younger equals more innocent. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t. There are 16 year old girls who are doing gang bangs and 18 year old girls who are still virgins. The girl I mentioned earlier who was a customer of mine. She was about as “innocent” as I am.

yes you make some good points on a pratical level, and on a pratical level it can be argued that sexual awareness like intelligence and wisdom isn't always age related .
Some sixteen year olds can be much smarter and aware of what they want than people double their age might be , it can also be argued that whats consdered a minor and illegal in the US and UK isn't in Holland and other nations that have a lower age of consent.
One can also point out the crazy laws in the UK that say its legal to have sex with a sixteen year old in the UK but you can't take them for a drink in a pub or the craziness of their laws that say 16 year olds can have sex but can't be written about as having sex and can't view porn or even the fact that straight sex becomes legal a whole six years before gay sex does.

Or in reverse the crazy laws in some parts of America that say you have to be 21 to have sex or to view sites dedicated to sex but you can be sent off to kill or be killed in wars at 18.

All of that makes perfect sense if peoples moral values were based on some type of logic but it rarely is.

Someone pointed something out on a forum of mine on a completly different topic but thats similar to this.

Most people including people here think that racism is very bad and evil and yet many of the same people would think that patriotism is perfectly fine.
its also considered perfectly fine for Americans to make jokes about English and their bad teeth (a total stereotype most likely based on period dramas) or for English to make jokes about how dumb Americans are.
But making jokes about blacks being dumb or Jews being greedy is a no go.

Theres no logic to that double standard since patriotism and racism are both part of the same mentality their both about discriminating agaisnt people based on what they are rather than who they are and likewise nation based jokes like race jokes are based on stereotypes.

Also Don Imus and Dog the bounty hunter both end up with their shows off air due to having made "racist" comments and yet Isiah Thomas still keeps his cushy job dispite his racist comments.

Race and sex based political morality are pretty similar in that they are based on confusing logic and often double standards.

Yes logically its perfectly valid to ask why is it okay to fantasize about rape which is in reality a illegal act and very evil selfish and a thing that causes massive emotional truma and suffering for its victims in real life, but then its considered wrong to fantasize about underage sex.

Problem is morals and moral reactions are emotion rather than logic based.
if you want pratical reasons why a website should not allow underage sex fantasies then it would be that as my example about Secondlife shows allowing such things creates massivly bad publicity and unfavorable attention and can result in mainstream society having an excuse to stamp down on all sexual freedoms.

And using your examples if its just based on fantasing about individuals rather than a desire to destroy young innocence then why is it even needed to mention their age?

Adult based role play or stories here hardly ever mention a specific age they just give a general pysical discription some may say young or old but they rarely mention a specfic age so why not just not mention your victims age at all if her age is not the main reason for the fantasy.

As for the whole argument about whats the big difference between a 18 year old and a 16 year old the problem with that is another person will then come along and say what the big difference between a 16 year old and a 14 year old the next person will say whats different between 14 and 12 then its 12 and 10 then 10 and 8 then 8 and 6 then 6 and 4 then 4 and 2 then 2 and a new born baby.

Moast western nations agree 18 is the age when someone reaches enough maturity to be involved in sex, and the argument about why is fantasing about the evil and illegal act of rape ok if fantasisning about sex with minors isn't, may make some kind of logical sense.

But since society isn't logical and its reactions are not and since the reaction of mainstream society against even fantasies involving underage sex is far stronger and would create far to much anti and unwanted reactions it makes sense for even fetish based websites too avoid and disallow them.

Also note that to mainstream society all the fetishes on here would be considered sick gross and crazy but they differ from the underage fantasy in that the underage fanatasy also ignites societies protective intstincts and anger rather than just a feeling of being grossed and weirded out or disturbed which is another logical reason for websites to avoid them.

[Becka]

Originally Posted by jack-the-ripa

I don't know what your idea of the Middle Ages is, but my notion of European Middle Ages extends until the late 17th century. And I believe we have Aligieri, Machiavelli, Shakespeare...
And, by the way, according to some historical theoreticians The Middle Ages are not the same as The Dark Age...

Middle Ages: Roughly 5th century (fall of what was left of the Roman Empire in the west) to 15th century (beginning of the Renaissance). To consider the 17th century and Shakespeare the Middle Ages is bizarre. You are completely eliminating the Renaissance, the Age of Colonization and the "golden age" of English history! Are you telling me that the first English colonies in America were settled in the Middle Age? By the dates you give you are. Not likely!

Renaissance: 14th through the 17th century...This is the age of Florence, of science and art, of DeVinci and the Protestant Reformation (consequentially begun 490 years ago yesterday). There is a huge difference between the Middle Ages and the Renaissance.

And you say the late 17th century? By this point John Locke, Johann Sebastian Bach, and Sir Issac Newton are all alive and some soon to be dead. Twelve of the thirteen colonies were founded and the United States was less than 100 years from independence. I really don't see where you came up with those dates.

B.

Oh...and...
The Dark Ages are thought of by many historian as being part of the Middle Ages...the earlier part of the Middle Ages that is.

[jack-the-ripa]

I've told you. Some historical theoreticians set the illuminist era as the end of the middle ages. It's a debatable subject in Eastern-European chronicles... And my English is not chiselled enough to elaborate upon the explanation.

Originally Posted by jack-the-ripa

I don't know what your idea of the Middle Ages is, but my notion of European Middle Ages extends until the late 17th century. And I believe we have Aligieri, Machiavelli, Shakespeare...
And, by the way, according to some historical theoreticians The Middle Ages are not the same as The Dark Age...

Well my notion of the Universe is, God created the entire Universe in six days. The Earth is the center of the Universe and is stationary. Everything else in the Universe revolves around the Earth. Oh and the Moon is made of cheese....

I don't actually that of course, but I have every right to believe that if I want to. But just because I decide that I have a particular "notion" about something, doesn't mean that I am actually right.

In your case, your "notion" of the Middle Ages, is actually well into and in fact, toward the end of the Renaissance.

While it's impossible to put an exact date on historical periods. That is why we use periods in the first place. The Middle Ages roughly spanned from the fall of the Roman Empire, to the BEGINNING of the Renaissance.

[ego]

I am thirty years old. For me, the middle ages was 1991.

[Becka]

Originally Posted by jack-the-ripa

I've told you. Some historical theoreticians set the illuminist era as the end of the middle ages. It's a debatable subject in Eastern-European chronicles... And my English is not chiselled enough to elaborate upon the explanation.

Well, if you are referring to Eastern Europe and Russia then the Middle Ages did drag on until the 17th century (according to some) based on the way of life and the mind set of the region. Then again serfdom and feudalism had pretty much died out in England by around 1500 where in Russia it remained the law until the middle of the 1800s I believe.

But you sited Shakespeare and the like who are distinctly Western European so I answered what to what you mentioned. The Middle Ages were well over by the 17th century in Europe and we (I say that since the colonies were well established by that point) were into the Early Modern Era.

B.

Originally Posted by Joanna

And using your examples if its just based on fantasing about individuals rather than a desire to destroy young innocence then why is it even needed to mention their age?

Adult based role play or stories here hardly ever mention a specific age they just give a general pysical discription some may say young or old but they rarely mention a specfic age so why not just not mention your victims age at all if her age is not the main reason for the fantasy.

Because the age often times IS relevant. If a few years ago, I had told you there was this hot girl who was a frequent customer where I worked, I wanted to have sex with her and I thought that it would be easy to do so, you would have wondered what the problem was. The problem was, she was maybe 15 and I was twice her age.

I never did write them, but I had a few ideas for stories involving this girl and most of them, the fact that she was young, naïve, had no adult supervision, etc. were all elements in the story.

I suppose something else I like is that it is so taboo. Sometimes, that’s a turn on for me, other times, I just find it funny. I especially find it amusing when rape fantasists starting point judgmental fingers at other people’s fantasies. This particular forum is especially amusing in that regard. This forum not only has rape as it’s subject, but incest and bestiality as well. So, we end up with, if I want to have consensual sex with a 16 year old, then I’m a sick pervert, but if I want to rape my mother while she sucks my dog’s dick, well hey, that’s fine.

The second thing I find amusing is, while most forums do have at least some rules regarding underage material, some of the mods here really take things to an extreme. In fact, I’m kind of surprised no one has popped up to quote board rules and scream about underage references in my posts here.

As for the whole argument about whats the big difference between a 18 year old and a 16 year old the problem with that is another person will then come along and say what the big difference between a 16 year old and a 14 year old the next person will say whats different between 14 and 12 then its 12 and 10 then 10 and 8 then 8 and 6 then 6 and 4 then 4 and 2 then 2 and a new born baby.

I do agree with that point and it's something I've thought about in regard to the forum I run. That's why my personal preference, as far as admining a website goes is, I like the idea of a rule that says under 18 stories are subject to admin approval, versus setting some arbitrary age.

Moast western nations agree 18 is the age when someone reaches enough maturity to be involved in sex, and the argument about why is fantasing about the evil and illegal act of rape ok if fantasisning about sex with minors isn't, may make some kind of logical sense.

Actually, you are completely wrong about that. Not only do “most” Western nations not have 18 as the age of consent, you can’t even say that “most” states in the US have 18 as the age of consent. I would venture that if you averaged it out, the average age of consent in Western nations is closer to 16 than 18. Also, the majority of jurisdictions draw legal distinctions between sex between teenagers, versus sex between teenagers and adults. In the state where I live, I could go to jail for having sex with the 15 year old I mentioned earlier. Her 15 year old boyfriend on the other hand, wouldn’t be violating any law at all by having sex with her.

That brings me back to something I asked before, that I don’t think you ever answered. What if my fantasy, story, etc. doesn’t involve me at all? What if I’m fantasizing about being her age? What if I want to write a story about her being raped by her teenage boyfriend and his buddies?

Before you ask me again of why mention the age at all, it’s because it is again relevant. Age can play a role in so many scenarios. Loss of virginity, peer pressure, raging hormones, underage drinking, being unaccustomed to the effects of alcohol, sexual experimentation that gets out of hand, lack of parental supervision, parents being away for the weekend, girl home alone after school, etc. etc.

But since society isn't logical and its reactions are not and since the reaction of mainstream society against even fantasies involving underage sex is far stronger and would create far to much anti and unwanted reactions it makes sense for even fetish based websites too avoid and disallow them.

Okay, so what you're saying is, I should give up my constitutional right to free speech and instead run my website based on the varying whims of a society which you yourself say isn't "logical."

[Joanna]

Originally Posted by cleanfun4all

Because the age often times IS relevant. If a few years ago, I had told you there was this hot girl who was a frequent customer where I worked, I wanted to have sex with her and I thought that it would be easy to do so, you would have wondered what the problem was. The problem was, she was maybe 15 and I was twice her age.

I never did write them, but I had a few ideas for stories involving this girl and most of them, the fact that she was young, naïve, had no adult supervision, etc. were all elements in the story.

I suppose something else I like is that it is so taboo. Sometimes, that’s a turn on for me, other times, I just find it funny. I especially find it amusing when rape fantasists starting point judgmental fingers at other people’s fantasies. This particular forum is especially amusing in that regard. This forum not only has rape as it’s subject, but incest and bestiality as well. So, we end up with, if I want to have consensual sex with a 16 year old, then I’m a sick pervert, but if I want to rape my mother while she sucks my dog’s dick, well hey, that’s fine.

The second thing I find amusing is, while most forums do have at least some rules regarding underage material, some of the mods here really take things to an extreme. In fact, I’m kind of surprised no one has popped up to quote board rules and scream about underage references in my posts here.



I do agree with that point and it's something I've thought about in regard to the forum I run. That's why my personal preference, as far as admining a website goes is, I like the idea of a rule that says under 18 stories are subject to admin approval, versus setting some arbitrary age.



Actually, you are completely wrong about that. Not only do “most” Western nations not have 18 as the age of consent, you can’t even say that “most” states in the US have 18 as the age of consent. I would venture that if you averaged it out, the average age of consent in Western nations is closer to 16 than 18. Also, the majority of jurisdictions draw legal distinctions between sex between teenagers, versus sex between teenagers and adults. In the state where I live, I could go to jail for having sex with the 15 year old I mentioned earlier. Her 15 year old boyfriend on the other hand, wouldn’t be violating any law at all by having sex with her.

That brings me back to something I asked before, that I don’t think you ever answered. What if my fantasy, story, etc. doesn’t involve me at all? What if I’m fantasizing about being her age? What if I want to write a story about her being raped by her teenage boyfriend and his buddies?

Before you ask me again of why mention the age at all, it’s because it is again relevant. Age can play a role in so many scenarios. Loss of virginity, peer pressure, raging hormones, underage drinking, being unaccustomed to the effects of alcohol, sexual experimentation that gets out of hand, lack of parental supervision, parents being away for the weekend, girl home alone after school, etc. etc.



Okay, so what you're saying is, I should give up my constitutional right to free speech and instead run my website based on the varying whims of a society which you yourself say isn't "logical."

I see so sometimes the age is relevent yes had wondered if the taboo of it was what added to the attraction, since its not so much to do with pyhsical appearence then the taboo is a large part of the attraction?

LOL well I can understand your comments about finding it amusing when rape fantasists get judgmental on your fantasies.
rape is cruel and some people here also have very extreme rape fantasies with great amounts of cruelty and violence and sometimes even death so it can seem odd that they can view your fantasy as gross or illegal .

So yeah it can seem odd if they think its their place to get judgmental but then society itself is full of double standards.
You can buy games like GTA that allow you to commit violent crime steal things blow peoples heads off kill for fun.
TV shows even kids stuff like ninja turtles features tons of violence.

society is generally ok with all that but someone creating a cheat that allows sexual activity in GTA or the sight of naked flesh on TV has tons of people writing in to complain.
Society seems to think killing, violence and even crime is far more aceptable than a human body without clothing let alone doing a sex act.

sex has always inolved a vast amount of double standards and emotional reactions, so mix that up with peoples natural reaction to protect children then its not suprizing that it illicits a lot of reactions that don't make a great deal of sense on a logical level.

RE the admin approval part of your site ah but then you will be in the same position as mods here are .
you complain that mods here won't allow you to post stories involving underage sex.
But with your admin approval rule your even more in a position to get accussed of double standards and hypcoricy.
For example if you were to say stories involving 14 year olds are ok but then somone wanted to write a story involving a 12 year old and you said no.

The dis gruntled person you turned down would have even more grounds to complain about double standards than you have about rape fantasists disaproving or getting judgemental towards your underage fantasy.
The disgruntled member would say "hey you think having sexual fantasies involving 14 year olds is okay so whats wrong with 12 year olds how can you get judgmental about my fantasy with 12 year olds when you say 14 year olds are ok .
If you give ground on that then the member who wants to write fantasies about 9 or 10 year olds will say hey if 12 and 14 year olds are ok why not 9 or 10 year olds. and so it goes.
At least the nothing under 18 rule has the consistency that its obeying legal rules or is at least seeming to.

re age of consent in Euroland it can vary from 14 as in Holland to sixteen which is the average.

in the US it can vary from 16 all the way to 21. not all states draw a distinction between teens having sex theres a big hue and cry over the case of the 17 year old boy being given a very heavy sentence for having sex with a 15 year old girl .
in a reverse of that its perfectly legal in England for a 16 year old to have sex with a 61 year old
Of course the fact that many nations and even some states say its ok for people to have real sex at 16 but can't view sites or rp sex until they are 18 only shows the insanely hypocritical nature of sexual based morality, but then again societies morals are full of double standards in all areas and in all matters.

As for if you were to write a story about a teen raping a teen or a underaged person raping a underage person I would guess if writing stories involving underage sex is a no go on a forum then the age of the perp would be irrelevent to that ban.

As for if I am saying you should give up your "constitutional" right to free speech and run YOUR forum according to the whims of society.

No this is cyber space so the whole constitution thing isn't really relevent and websites are a law unto themselves to a degree.

I have (part run) a forum of my own its a normal forum but we had choices to make like would we allow swearing would we allow some degree of racist comments some degree of adult content, we decided we would within some degrees but other websites choose to ban all of that stuff outright.

So when it comes to YOUR websites it would be up to you what you chose to allow and not allow, and even with your subject to approval by admin rule your saying your going to make personal value judgments and draw lines on whats allowed and what isn't which is fair enough on your own site and people can then either use the forum within the rules and standards you have set or not use it.

Now I am the reverse to you there are lots of the fetishes here I find gross I am not even comfortable with rape fantasy thing anymore and scat beastality and incest makes me wanna go

If I had my way I would have a whole section dedicated to threads like the real rape thread I love the idle section and rowdy room only and I like chatting and debating with people here most of the sex stuff either leaves me cold grosses me out or outright disturbs me.

But if I want to use this site I have to accept that this site will allow things I dislike and will not allow or implement the things I do want.
Because whats allowed on a site is either down to the site owners or the majority of the members but either way not everyone can have what they want.
So people using this site have to accept whatever polocies the site bosses want to implement.
Those who want underage fantasies will just have to accept this site doesn't accept that because either the owner doesn't want the negative backlash that will result from it or the majority of members view it as unacceptable wether their unaccptence is logically justified or not.
Just as anyone using your site will have to accept that you do allow underage sex tales on your forum since on your forum you choose whats allowed and what isn't.