Ground Zero

[batffink]

You guys know me by now. Not trying to be controversial but how do you Americans feel about current plans to have a mosque built near Ground Zero?

I read in the news recently that New Yorkers are up in arms about it. I know how I'd feel but how do citizens of the USA feel?

[jwham]

Ground Zero is hollowed ground most Americans feel, as do I, and to build a Mosque near it is like rubbing salt in an open wound, it is a bad move by Muslims who are pressing for wider acceptance in the USA, winning in the court of law will not improve their image with the American people, but rather incite more mistrust of Islamic religion. It will be argued that the Mosque is for moderate Muslims, but so called ‘moderate’ Muslims do not speak for Islam and have no authority to change that mandate which the Quran mandates all Muslims to wage jihad against all non Muslims until Islam dominates the earth. The history of Islam shows clearly that Muslims have always understood and followed that mandate. Millions of Muslims today are doing the same thing.

[FuckingRotter]

Let them build it then fly a plane into the cunt. Or pour on vodka, set it alight and have a hog roast.

[Sierra]

Although FR puts is more colorfully than I would, I would have to agree.

It's ill-advised and in poor taste at best - a shocking slap in the face at worst.

[Crotch_Ripper]

As someone who people affected by the cleanup of 9/11 I will state this. Its not only outrageous its a slap in the face to every American.

And I also notice it seems to be a large amount of left leaning people who want this. These are the same ones who bash Christianity at every turn.

I work with two Muslims they are APPALLED by this. This is done under the guise of healing. If they truly want to help heal the wounds between Muslims & the US, show the families and victims of 9/11 some respect.

Build the fucking thing someplace else.

[somedude]

I'm going to have to post the descenting US/American view here! Personally I think it would be a great symbol of unity between American Muslims and the rest of us Americans to have a mosque that close to ground zero. It would be a statement that we here in the US truly believe in religious freedom and of unity against religious extremists of all creeds and that we are willing to stand together against them! Of course its looking like do to a total lack of finances the mosque and center will never be build anyhow. And this is a great example of how completely non-vital wedge issues are used to keep people distracted from the shitburger we're really in and no one is doing anything about really!

[Crotch_Ripper]

Originally Posted by somedude

I'm going to have to post the descenting US/American view here! Personally I think it would be a great symbol of unity between American Muslims and the rest of us Americans to have a mosque that close to ground zero. It would be a statement that we here in the US truly believe in religious freedom and of unity against religious extremists of all creeds and that we are willing to stand together against them! Of course its looking like do to a total lack of finances the mosque and center will never be build anyhow. And this is a great example of how completely non-vital wedge issues are used to keep people distracted from the shitburger we're really in and no one is doing anything about really!

SD We will certainly agree that this is all "Bread & Circuses"

[somedude]

Or I-Pods and Dancing With The Stars!

[FuckingRotter]

It would be a greater statement of freedom if no place of worship, or of commerce, was built there. Turf it, plant some trees, leave a small tasteful memorial and let the world move on.

Originally Posted by somedude

I'm going to have to post the descenting US/American view here! Personally I think it would be a great symbol of unity between American Muslims and the rest of us Americans to have a mosque that close to ground zero. It would be a statement that we here in the US truly believe in religious freedom and of unity against religious extremists of all creeds and that we are willing to stand together against them! Of course its looking like do to a total lack of finances the mosque and center will never be build anyhow. And this is a great example of how completely non-vital wedge issues are used to keep people distracted from the shitburger we're really in and no one is doing anything about really!

[batffink]

Originally Posted by FuckingRotter

It would be a greater statement of freedom if no place of worship, or of commerce, was built there. Turf it, plant some trees, leave a small tasteful memorial and let the world move on.

"tasteful"

Now that is a nearly unknown word in America. If it came to "tasteful" versus "land at a zillion dollars a square metre" in downtown Manhattan, "tasteful" would come in a long distand second.

[FuckingRotter]

*chuckle*

Not of course that we should expect our Septic cousins to take a blind bit of notice of what us old worlders think. They will continue to carve their own path in the world. Good luck to them I say, if they can live with the consequences.

America. Dazzling, loud, often completely tasteless, somewhat troubling in their enthusiasm for spreading their confused philosophy of freedom. Strikes me as a naive country, I sincerely hope their love for democracy isn't their undoing just because not all the world sees it their way.

[jwham]

America is a nation that rose out of farmers with rifles, grit and clever tactics, we beat at the time the strongest army and nation in the world, and yes we are a proud people, who march to the beat of our own drum, some may call that tastless. I think the problem that people have with America is that we were born from a rebellious movement, so we naturally hate government takeover. Which is so different from Western Europe which seems to be okay with the government running most things.

[batffink]

Originally Posted by jwham

America is a nation that rose out of farmers with rifles, grit and clever tactics, we beat at the time the strongest army and nation in the world, and yes we are a proud people, who march to the beat of our own drum, some may call that tastless. I think the problem that people have with America is that we were born from a rebellious movement, so we naturally hate government takeover. Which is so different from Western Europe which seems to be okay with the government running most things.

Do you honestly think that the government doesn't run your whole life in the USA Jwham?
Man, you're living in a dreamworld. And yes! you did beat the strongest army in the world - with the help of the French, the Spanish and the Indians.
You were all British at the time anyway.

[snarkopo]

Originally Posted by batffink

Do you honestly think that the government doesn't run your whole life in the USA Jwham?
Man, you're living in a dreamworld. And yes! you did beat the strongest army in the world - with the help of the French, the Spanish and the Indians.
You were all British at the time anyway.

What counts is that we stood up to them.

Who cares if we had help from the French, Spanish, Indians or the aliens from alpha centuri - yes they helped as well but we never told anyone.

[jwham]

Originally Posted by batffink

Do you honestly think that the government doesn't run your whole life in the USA Jwham?
Man, you're living in a dreamworld. And yes! you did beat the strongest army in the world - with the help of the French, the Spanish and the Indians.
You were all British at the time anyway.

The French sent a token amount of 6,000 soldiers, which were of great help, but their main support was maritime in nature, and that was the real help.

Spain did not help, until much later, for they saw the American revolution as threatening the legitimacy of the Spanish Crown in its own Latin American colonies. Spain's help came in the form that they loaned (and even gave, no strings attached!) money to the US to fund the revolution. Spain also allowed the US to take advantage of Spanish trade and merchant ships as to send war materials.

The English government had the Quebec Act, restraining colonial expansion into the territory reserved to the Indians, Chief Joseph Brant, the Mohawk, after returning from England, where he was warmly received and highly honored, was convinced that the Indian future lay with the British Crown and not with the American colonists.Brant succeeded in getting four of the six Iroquois nations to take up the hatchet against the Americans. Only the Oneida and the Tuscarora refused.

The British hired Hessians and Germans into British regiments, and the use of a Scottish brigade in the pay of Holland, and attempts were made to procure 20,000 mercenaries from Russia, so they need help as well.

[Lil-Mac]

Originally Posted by jwham

The French sent a token amount of 6,000 soldiers, which were of great help, but their main support was maritime in nature, and that was the real help.

Spain did not help, until much later, for they saw the American revolution as threatening the legitimacy of the Spanish Crown in its own Latin American colonies. Spain's help came in the form that they loaned (and even gave, no strings attached!) money to the US to fund the revolution. Spain also allowed the US to take advantage of Spanish trade and merchant ships as to send war materials.

The English government had the Quebec Act, restraining colonial expansion into the territory reserved to the Indians, Chief Joseph Brant, the Mohawk, after returning from England, where he was warmly received and highly honored, was convinced that the Indian future lay with the British Crown and not with the American colonists.Brant succeeded in getting four of the six Iroquois nations to take up the hatchet against the Americans. Only the Oneida and the Tuscarora refused.

The British hired Hessians and Germans into British regiments, and the use of a Scottish brigade in the pay of Holland, and attempts were made to procure 20,000 mercenaries from Russia, so they need help as well.

Not to turn this into a history debate but as a history teacher I have to say that we would not have stood a chance without the aid of the French, Spanish and Dutch.

While it is true that their direct aid here in America was limited their real value as allies came in three forms:

1. Military aid: There was no industry in the colonies to speak of, very few foundries to make muskets and cannon, so where did we get them? Mainly from France. Not only that but at prices so low that the French government nearly went bankrupt supporting us... which was one of the major reasons for the French Revolution, but thats another discussion.

2. Training: Our soldiers, while brave, were largely untrained to fight a proper war and many of those that did have proper military training actually supported the British, this was expecially true of Colonial officers. Without trainers from Europe it is doubtful that Washington would ever have been able to field a large, effective army.

3. Interdiction: While it is true that our allies in the war did little to help us directly on the battlefields of North America they contributed greatly to interdicting and engaging British forces overseas. Britian was forced to fight what amounted to the First World War. The British were fighting in Europe, North America, South America, The Caribbean and in India. For them it was truely a global conflict, we just had to worry about our little patch. Had the British been able to deploy anything even close to their full military might against us the war would have been over within a year.

As an American and a veteran I am proud of what our forefathers were able to accomplish. However I am also fully aware that without the aid we recieved those accomplishments would never have happened.

Now... to the topic of this thread, Ground Zero. I have to admit that when I first heard of this plan to build a mosque (actually it is an interfaith community center with facilities for Muslums, Christians and Jews) at the ground zero site I was appalled. I couldnt believe that any group could be so callous, so unfeeling as to attempt this.

However I have come to think and feel differently about this. Why have I changed my stance? Education. I have educated myself about the issue and there are several important facts about this project that are almost never mentioned, especially by those in the media (FOX NEWS) that wish to forment hate, fear and discord in America.

The project has been dubbed the Ground Zero Mosque. This description is in itself a lie. First of all... IT'S NOT AT GROUND ZERO!! The proposed project is to take place on site two blocks from ground zero. I'll grant you it's close, but it's not ground zero. If two blocks is not far enough away then what is? Two miles? Ten miles? Out of the city altogether??

Second, it's not just a mosque. In fact I'm not even sure it can rightly be called a mosque. What it is, is an interfaith community center. It will have facilities for Christian, Jews as well as Muslims. It will also have non-religious facilities for civic functions and community events.

These are just two of the physical facts that many people ignore. There is also something else to consider. In America we dont tell people where they can or cant live, we dont tell people where they can or cant work, and we dont tell people where they can or cant build a house of worship. And folks, thats what this is. It's not a church, it's not a synagogue, it's not a mosque. It's all of these and none of these.

America is better than this, at least it should be.

[snarkopo]

Originally Posted by Lil-Mac

Not to turn this into a history debate but as a history teacher I have to say that we would not have stood a chance without the aid of the French, Spanish and Dutch.

While it is true that their direct aid here in America was limited their real value as allies came in three forms:

1. Military aid: There was no industry in the colonies to speak of, very few foundries to make muskets and cannon, so where did we get them? Mainly from France. Not only that but at prices so low that the French government nearly went bankrupt supporting us... which was one of the major reasons for the French Revolution, but thats another discussion.

2. Training: Our soldiers, while brave, were largely untrained to fight a proper war and many of those that did have proper military training actually supported the British, this was expecially true of Colonial officers. Without trainers from Europe it is doubtful that Washington would ever have been able to field a large, effective army.

3. Interdiction: While it is true that our allies in the war did little to help us directly on the battlefields of North America they contributed greatly to interdicting and engaging British forces overseas. Britian was forced to fight what amounted to the First World War. The British were fighting in Europe, North America, South America, The Caribbean and in India. For them it was truely a global conflict, we just had to worry about our little patch. Had the British been able to deploy anything even close to their full military might against us the war would have been over within a year.

As an American and a veteran I am proud of what our forefathers were able to accomplish. However I am also fully aware that without the aid we recieved those accomplishments would never have happened.

Now... to the topic of this thread, Ground Zero. I have to admit that when I first heard of this plan to build a mosque (actually it is an interfaith community center with facilities for Muslums, Christians and Jews) at the ground zero site I was appalled. I couldnt believe that any group could be so callous, so unfeeling as to attempt this.

However I have come to think and feel differently about this. Why have I changed my stance? Education. I have educated myself about the issue and there are several important facts about this project that are almost never mentioned, especially by those in the media (FOX NEWS) that wish to forment hate, fear and discord in America.

The project has been dubbed the Ground Zero Mosque. This description is in itself a lie. First of all... IT'S NOT AT GROUND ZERO!! The proposed project is to take place on site two blocks from ground zero. I'll grant you it's close, but it's not ground zero. If two blocks is not far enough away then what is? Two miles? Ten miles? Out of the city altogether??

Second, it's not just a mosque. In fact I'm not even sure it can rightly be called a mosque. What it is, is an interfaith community center. It will have facilities for Christian, Jews as well as Muslims. It will also have non-religious facilities for civic functions and community events.

These are just two of the physical facts that many people ignore. There is also something else to consider. In America we dont tell people where they can or cant live, we dont tell people where they can or cant work, and we dont tell people where they can or cant build a house of worship. And folks, thats what this is. It's not a church, it's not a synagogue, it's not a mosque. It's all of these and none of these.

America is better than this, at least it should be.

Also well said

[snarkopo]

As always, Batffink stirring up the shit....

I am inclined to believe that most Muslims are peaceful and just want to live and let live. I think it would be rather obvious if they weren't. And that they find terrorism as abhorrent as anyone else. Pretty much like the rest of us. It's unfortunate for both them and non-Muslims that the people who get all the attention are the lunatics. But that's the nature of religion and why I generally despise it.

So in an idealistic frame of mind I say build a mosque AT ground zero. As a reminder to Muslims, and anyone who calls themselves religious, of what can happen when radicals are given a credible ear.
We have a choice to either show them, and the world, that we are serious about freedom and welcome all, or to tell them to fuck off and get outta town.

If we tell them to get lost, we only alienate those who are indeed moderate. And we will possibly foster even more hate. If, on the other hand, we allow the Mosque, it would show we are not giving in to the extremists. That we will not be deceived by a bunch of murderers who would probably like nothing more than to drive a wedge between all Muslims and non-Muslims. That in the end, is how these assholes get their power.

But, that's just my thinking on a good day.

[jwham]

Originally Posted by snarkopo

So in an idealistic frame of mind I say build a mosque AT ground zero. As a reminder to Muslims, and anyone who calls themselves religious, of what can happen when radicals are given a credible ear.
We have a choice to either show them, and the world, that we are serious about freedom and welcome all, or to tell them to fuck off and get outta town.

If we tell them to get lost, we only alienate those who are indeed moderate. And we will possibly foster even more hate. If, on the other hand, we allow the Mosque, it would show we are not giving in to the extremists. That we will not be deceived by a bunch of murders who would probably like nothing more than to drive a wedge between all Muslims and non-Muslims. That in the end, is how these assholes get their power.

I can go along with that Snarkopo, as long as a Baptist Church is built on one side of the Mosque, and a Jewish Synagogue is built on the other side of the Mosque, but I doubt that the Muslims would like the idea. But that is just my opinion.

[snarkopo]

Originally Posted by jwham

I can go along with that Snarkopo, as long as a Baptist Church is built on one side of the Mosque, and a Jewish Synagogue is built on the other side of the Mosque, but I doubt that the Muslims would like the idea. But that is just my opinion.

Not a bad idea actually. Add a Greek Orthodox and Roman catholic church and we could have the pentagon of faith! That sounds creepy actually but might be a good thing anyway.