real rape???

[ego]

[QUOTE=Louise]

I should be able to walk through the back streets of the more dangerous suburbs of London without fear...whatever im dressed in, whatever state im in...but I KNOW I cant. I would be acting irresponsibily...irresponsible to my own safety. I certainly wouldnt deserve to be raped...or even have my state of dress or mental competence used to justify rape!

QUOTE]

Thanks Louise.Exactly my point.You should but you cant.
It would be irresponsible to your own safety.

[Joanna]

[QUOTE=ego] Oh, what a river! Take it easy, this is not my mother language
I will try to answer anyway.

Originally Posted by Joanna

I believe there are at least 2 kinds of rapists.One who has it in mind (and probably has done it again) and seeks for a chance.And the one who decides at that moment to do it.One of the reasons he decide it, is probably he was provocated by the victim.That means NOT he is less guilty than the first.He is an evil madman also, as u said.But it means that the victim brought herself in a dangerous situation (a thing she could avoid).


I never said that ANY woman raped, became victim because of her fault.For the 2nd question, yes, at least partly responsible.
I do belive in freedom.I do believe that any person is free to choose what to put on.But being provoctive, and then walking half-drunk the dark alley with a miniskirt as long as my belt, is not a clever thing to do. Finally, call a fucking taxi.Ask your boyfriend, a gay u know, your father, somebody.



Belive me Joanna, i dont walk in ghettos.And if i ever do, it will be in dirty jeans and an old ford ( a capri i guess ).Otherwise, feel free to come and piss on my grave
And if i ever have so much money to become a target ( not possible, i simply cant hold money, they r like fish, u eat them fresh ) i will pay hard for security.



This is not a good example.
I know my answer may cause pages of discussion.I was banned from a board for having my opinion on this.Anyway, i will write it...
Well, people who died on 9/11 were '' at least partly responsible''. Because they fall in the trap to believe they are safe and that there was no reason to react while their goverments humiliates humanity and exchange human lifes for oil. Oh yes, they died because of america's choices in external politic.
Hard to say,sorry to say,but it is the bitter truth...



Yes, we should own. But passing next to people who dont (but have a way to destroy ours) and say them: ''look ashole, look what i have and u have not'' is not clever...



If I go to an islamic country and express how much i like rape fantasies, is like i ask them cut off my dick.Its not ''at least'' its completly MY fault...



Why i cant scream "BARCA-BARCA'' in ''Santiago Bernabeu'' ?
Why i cant walk with pockets full of money in the ghetto ?
Why i cant speak about rape in islam ?
Because they will fuck me. That simple!



Come on Joanna...You describe the perfect place...
If you find it, please e-mail me (sea is necessary )




Probably a combination.Old sexism is not dead yet.

I would like an answer (one never taken ) in my question: why i cant go out for a drink without every little teaser behave with the style ''look what u cant fuck'' ?

I like proverbs, and i keep one for the end.A chinese one:
''People who live in houses of glass, should not throw stones''.
Hope not to get u tired.
Goodnight.Or goodmorning.

LOL well at least your more consistent of those of your ilk (I swear this should be in the rowdy room)

Firstly no point in trying to dilute your accusations by saying partly responsible if your holding them even in part resposnsible then your holding them responsible even shared responsibilty is being responsible.

Why do you insist on going about in the ghetto? murderous criminals don't just live in the ghetto there are people in all areas who are so greedy they will kill and rob you just because you have something they want so simply owning anything nice will incite such a person to come to WHERE YOU LIVE AND KILL AND ROB YOU so are you saying a person who owns a nice house is responsibible for their own deaths or store owners who are killed by robbers ?

As for your diatribe about 9/11 thats junk I bet you anything half of them were against most American foriergen policy a good percentage were not even American even Americans don't get much say in what the government chooses to do, so are you saying they asked to die simply by being in a building that was known to be a terrosts target

I didn't say if you were to talk about your rape fantasies in an Islamic country there is no country that advocates rape and in every country there are extremists of both a religious and a political nature that would want to kill you for having such fantasies there are also people who might wish to kill you for your political and national beliefs will you say if they attack you that you were responsible for it cuz you incited them?

To make a really simple example if you were to express your views on a rape victim being responsible for their own fate just due to the way they were dressed would you hold yourself responsible or even partly responsible for the fact that someone incited by those views attacked or even shot you? .
Or would you say as most reasonable people would say that someone cannot be held responsible in anyway for the lack of control and rational thought and behavior on the part of another person?

[Joanna]

"I would like an answer (one never taken ) in my question: why i cant go out for a drink without every little teaser behave with the style ''look what u cant fuck'' ?" (ego asked)

Oh Ego as for this one maybe you should stop drinking in low class dives then and exactly what do you class as teasing anyway?

[ego]

[QUOTE=Joanna]

As for your diatribe about 9/11 thats junk I bet you anything half of them were against most American foriergen policy a good percentage were not even American even Americans don't get much say in what the government chooses to do, so are you saying they asked to die simply by being in a building that was known to be a terrosts target
QUOTE]

That was not a diatribe Joanna.If u wish i can post one.
On the point, i believe ( i hope, if u prefer ) many americans are against america's foriergen (foreign? ) policy.And so what?What they do for this?
I tell u one simple think.Last month only, 100 american soldiers died in Iraq. If this ever happen with greek soldiers, we have a revolution here...

About rape now. Well, its known we dont live in a moral world.U can be attacked in every place not only in ghettos.Living is dangerous.Rapists are criminals and they deserve every minute of the ''special treatment'' they get in prisons.These are all facts.
Another fact is, that if u ask an attack ( with words, clothes or behavior) u greatly increase the probability it happens.
To be attacked is one think.To be attacked because u ask it is another...
Goodmorning (goodnight) everybody!

[Louise]

Originally Posted by ego

As for your diatribe about 9/11 thats junk I bet you anything half of them were against most American foriergen policy a good percentage were not even American even Americans don't get much say in what the government chooses to do, so are you saying they asked to die simply by being in a building that was known to be a terrosts target
QUOTE]

That was not a diatribe Joanna.If u wish i can post one.
On the point, i believe ( i hope, if u prefer ) many americans are against america's foriergen (foreign? ) policy.And so what?What they do for this?
I tell u one simple think.Last month only, 100 american soldiers died in Iraq. If this ever happen with greek soldiers, we have a revolution here...

About rape now. Well, its known we dont live in a moral world.U can be attacked in every place not only in ghettos.Living is dangerous.Rapists are criminals and they deserve every minute of the ''special treatment'' they get in prisons.These are all facts.
Another fact is, that if u ask an attack ( with words, clothes or behavior) u greatly increase the probability it happens.
To be attacked is one think.To be attacked because u ask it is another...
Goodmorning (goodnight) everybody!

To be fair ego, i really dont think Joanna was saying anything about americas foreign policy, its people or anything of the sort, she was just making a point about personal choice with regards to personal safety. So I dont think that the first part of your response there was fair or relevant.

[ego]

Originally Posted by Louise

To be fair ego, i really dont think Joanna was saying anything about americas foreign policy, its people or anything of the sort, she was just making a point about personal choice with regards to personal safety. So I dont think that the first part of your response there was fair or relevant.

Not relevant at all.I said since the beggining, this is not a good example.
Also i am not sure i always catch the point, as long as i find words i dont know (and its fucking busy today, no time for dictionary).
But i am glad for ur conversation

[Grm]

Originally Posted by ego

Not relevant at all.I said since the beggining, this is not a good example.
Also i am not sure i always catch the point, as long as i find words i dont know (and its fucking busy today, no time for dictionary).
But i am glad for ur conversation

OK ego, EVERYONE is entitled to their own opinions here, there is nothing like a good debate, I can see you may be at a disadvantage as Greek is your native language. I think you should be commended for your English, I'm sure most of us here couldn't speek a word of Greek unless we have been to Korfu for our holidays. I think its healthy for all of us to see other cultures perspective on subjects and I think this is why in this discussion there has been a little misunderstanding[including me, sorry ego].

[ego]

Originally Posted by Grm

OK ego, EVERYONE is entitled to their own opinions here, there is nothing like a good debate, I can see you may be at a disadvantage as Greek is your native language. I think you should be commended for your English, I'm sure most of us here couldn't speek a word of Greek unless we have been to Korfu for our holidays. I think its healthy for all of us to see other cultures perspective on subjects and I think this is why in this discussion there has been a little misunderstanding[including me, sorry ego].

Pheewwww....
At first i thought u were angry with me, with the terrible consequences this can have.
I was sivering in fear that i am marked for a lifetime with the sheriff!!!

[Grm]

Originally Posted by ego

Pheewwww....
At first i thought u were angry with me, with the terrible consequences this can have.
I was sivering in fear that i am marked for a lifetime with the sheriff!!!

Nellie never marks peoples' books and unlike most elephants she has a short memory.

[Joanna]

[QUOTE=ego]

Originally Posted by Joanna

As for your diatribe about 9/11 thats junk I bet you anything half of them were against most American foriergen policy a good percentage were not even American even Americans don't get much say in what the government chooses to do, so are you saying they asked to die simply by being in a building that was known to be a terrosts target
QUOTE]

That was not a diatribe Joanna.If u wish i can post one.
On the point, i believe ( i hope, if u prefer ) many americans are against america's foriergen (foreign? ) policy.And so what?What they do for this?
I tell u one simple think.Last month only, 100 american soldiers died in Iraq. If this ever happen with greek soldiers, we have a revolution here...

About rape now. Well, its known we dont live in a moral world.U can be attacked in every place not only in ghettos.Living is dangerous.Rapists are criminals and they deserve every minute of the ''special treatment'' they get in prisons.These are all facts.
Another fact is, that if u ask an attack ( with words, clothes or behavior) u greatly increase the probability it happens.
To be attacked is one think.To be attacked because u ask it is another...
Goodmorning (goodnight) everybody!

your kind of miissing my point on that one since my point is are they to be held responsible due to simply being in a building that was known to be a terrorist risk (btw diatribe isn't nessasarily an put down word and if you have time you can give me a diatribe on it since I love a good strong debate lol)
but as it goes when it comes to Americas foriegen policy and Bush I think we agree on that since I think the policy and Bush suck

But to not get hooked up in the politics is a person who crosses a road (partly)responsible if they get killed or a store owner responsible if they are robbed and killed because they are doing something that its known has a risk of death?
Even having a strong view or anything can carry a risk since there is always a crazy person out there who thinks they can kill another person for disagreeing with them so to follow this line of thinking through, then any person that does anything that might incite a crazy person should be held responsible or partly responsible for the actions of the crazy person?

There is also another problem in this whole idea of holding a rape victim responsible due to her behavior, one of the most common forms of rape is date rape, so if we follow this whole idea of the victim of rape sharing responsibilty if her actions put her in a position were rape is more likely and saying she should not do things that put her in a place were rape is more likely otherwise she deserves some blame then dating would have to be a big no no cuz date rape is actually one of the most common forms of rape around.
so is anyone going to suggest a woman should never date?
In the end its lunacy to hold any one responsible for a crime other than the perp.

[ego]

Hello there.
Well. i am the last person to say that we should live in an aquarium, so no harm find us.
But: There are several ways to cross a road.The safe and the risky and many more...
According the low, if i go through the pedestrian and a car hits me, he is my killer. If i suddenly throw myself in the middle of a highway, i just suicide.And everybody is sorry for the driver.Not for me.
This example is not exactly ur point, because there is no will from the driver.It is a good example about how a detail makes the difference.
Another example:I use to spearfishing. The red-yellow ballon is requested by the low. If a boat runs over me and i had it, he is 100% responsible.If i had it not, he is responsible for 20%.
I see u call a rapist ''a crazy man''.I know some girls that can drive me crazy!
Not all the rapists are like u imagine.I believe some did it while in frenzy* or drunk, or drived by their passion (not that its not a crime no matter what).Like murderes, who made the kill because the tense of the moment.They are not the same with serial killers.
I believe a lot of rapes (and other crimes) could be avoided, if the victim was a little more carefull.
I have listen to opinions saying ''she was a slut and teaser, he gave her a lesson'' and things like this.I hope its clear this is not my point of view (there are other, more harmless ways to give a lesson). Mine is that someone, althought a victim, is partly responsible, when had in mind the dangers of a situation, but his actions increased (instead of decrease) the risk.
Lets say all rapists are evil madmen.They are animals. (BTW I believe that EVERY man, under circumstances, can become a rapist).
And lets say u are in your car, in the forest, when u meet a wild wolf.
Would u ever, EVER get out to ''play'' with the wolf? And if u do, is the wolf responsible for eating u?

Date rape is totally different.The wolf apears in a sheep's skin.He takes advantage of the trust the victim shows to him.These rapists should be executed by thousands small cuttings while lies in salt.

*= Dont take this lightly, or like an excuse.I will say my personal experience.No i never raped someone.While rapeplay, i came in a situation that a kind of frenzy possesed me and i couldnt stop pounding and i was feeling my mind was completely empty, no abillity to judge what really happens there.Not that i couldnt realize, but somehow, i didnt care.Only thing important at that moment was to stab my member as deep and hard as possible (or not possible) and drain pleasure from that face of mixed pain and questions.I could realize the tears were real and that she enjoys no more, that this happens against her will.But no judge at all.I was an animal.
Mind came back just 2 minutes after ejaculation and althought i forgave myself (she did also) i will never forget that face (one secret:same name with yours)
Next day i start thinking that this story about the men's two brains, perhaps, is not another sexistic joke... OK, alcool and joints were blamed...but i still wonder about how many brains (with the meaning of decission center) i have...
Conclusion: NEVER DRINK AND RAPE mates....

[ego]

[QUOTE=ego]No i never raped someone.QUOTE]

Or i did?
U judge...

[Joanna]

Originally Posted by ego

Hello there.
Well. i am the last person to say that we should live in an aquarium, so no harm find us.
But: There are several ways to cross a road.The safe and the risky and many more...
According the low, if i go through the pedestrian and a car hits me, he is my killer. If i suddenly throw myself in the middle of a highway, i just suicide.And everybody is sorry for the driver.Not for me.
This example is not exactly ur point, because there is no will from the driver.It is a good example about how a detail makes the difference.
Another example:I use to spearfishing. The red-yellow ballon is requested by the low. If a boat runs over me and i had it, he is 100% responsible.If i had it not, he is responsible for 20%.
I see u call a rapist ''a crazy man''.I know some girls that can drive me crazy!
Not all the rapists are like u imagine.I believe some did it while in frenzy* or drunk, or drived by their passion (not that its not a crime no matter what).Like murderes, who made the kill because the tense of the moment.They are not the same with serial killers.
I believe a lot of rapes (and other crimes) could be avoided, if the victim was a little more carefull.
I have listen to opinions saying ''she was a slut and teaser, he gave her a lesson'' and things like this.I hope its clear this is not my point of view (there are other, more harmless ways to give a lesson). Mine is that someone, althought a victim, is partly responsible, when had in mind the dangers of a situation, but his actions increased (instead of decrease) the risk.
Lets say all rapists are evil madmen.They are animals. (BTW I believe that EVERY man, under circumstances, can become a rapist).
And lets say u are in your car, in the forest, when u meet a wild wolf.
Would u ever, EVER get out to ''play'' with the wolf? And if u do, is the wolf responsible for eating u?

Date rape is totally different.The wolf apears in a ship's skin.He takes advantage of the trust the victim shows to him.These rapists should be executed by thousands small cuttings while lies in salt.

*= Dont take this lightly, or like an excuse.I will say my personal experience.No i never raped someone.While rapeplay, i came in a situation that a kind of frenzy possesed me and i couldnt stop pounding and i was feeling my mind was completely empty, no abillity to judge what really happens there.Not that i couldnt realize, but somehow, i didnt care.Only thing important at that moment was to stab my member as deep and hard as possible (or not possible) and drain pleasure from that face of mixed pain and questions.I could realize the tears were real and that she enjoys no more, that this happens against her will.But no judge at all.I was an animal.
Mind came back just 2 minutes after ejaculation and althought i forgave myself (she did also) i will never forget that face (one secret:same name with yours)
Next day i start thinking that this story about the men's two brains, perhaps, is not another sexistic joke... OK, alcool and joints were blamed...but i still wonder about how many brains (with the meaning of decission center) i have...
Conclusion: NEVER DRINK AND RAPE mates....

Yes now were we disagree is on what would constitute what would be the equivelent to jumping out in front of a moving car in the rape scenario.

See I wouldn't judge that walking down a dark alley or wearing a short skirt constitutes that since its resonable to assume that in most places guys will not go crazy and rape someone just because she wears a short skirt.
Short skirts are generally worn to atrract attention its resonable to guess that dressing that way will attract attention but its also reasonable to assume that wearing it will not attract a rapist since rape is the act of a relatively rare type of evil man its reasonable to assume one will not meet that.
Theres also the whole thing about what clothing is the type to attract rapists even leaving aside the fact that most average rapists are not drawn to sluts (can't be assumed anyway) theres the fact what might be sexually provocative in one culture isn't in another one.
in some cultures its quite common for everyone to walk around naked and in some sub cultures to such as naturalists without rape occuring so it should be safe to assume guys should have enough self control not to rape due to seeing a bit of leg flesh.

Then theres acts like the Jodie Foster Character in the accused commits the "prick teaser" now you can say that such a person has acted foolish or dangerously but I still wouldn't hold a person like that even partly responsible for the act off rape since its still on the guys to control their lust again we wouldn't consider doing something that might make others annoyed then makes the person resposible if a mad person kills them for it..

As for your quote about have you really raped, actually to some degree and under some legal systems you would have been declared guilty of real rape since even if you are in the middle of rape roleplay the moment you go beyond your partners limits and do something thats against her will both morally and in many countries legally that could be classed as (real) rape.
so guess you got kind of lucky that your "partner" forgave your lack of control.

[ego]

This white, stupid and tasty animal is called sheep or ship?
Cos i think i made a very funny mistake...

[Sternenlied]

And lets say u are in your car, in the forest, when u meet a wild wolf.
Would u ever, EVER get out to ''play'' with the wolf? And if u do, is the wolf responsible for eating u?

Interesting statement ... legally insignificant, though. Because a wolf is considered an animal while a man is considered a human being.
No one can blame an animal for killing another animal (or a human that is). But still: if a dog for example attacks a human being it is still put to sleep. Many animals were and are killed for being a danger to humans.
Although we're on the way (see Guantanamo) we do not kill people for posing a possible threat to other humans. Although a bad movie I'm quite glad we're not living in "Minority Report"-times yet.

The question of who's to blame in a rape is a rather interesting one. In some states it is possible to put (at least part of) the responsibility on the victim (because of clothing, behaviour, and so on). In Germany for example it's not. As soon as a woman says "No", it's over. If it's not it's rape. That goes for roleplaying, too. And I think that's the only way it's supposed to be. As soon as one of the participants wants to stop it has to stop, plain and simple!

A man (I use the male as rapist, because that's just more often the case) who can't control himself is considered to be a criminal or mentally ill (maybe both). So what do we do about it? Do way say "Well, that's just the way he is" or do we try to change it by punishing or treating him?
We try to change it, because that's how we are. If something is not what we consider to be right we try to make it right (see Iraq). So if a woman cannot walk around however she likes to shouldn't we try to change that as well instead of saying "Just don't do that" or "Don't wear that"?

I admit a woman should be aware of possible dangers in certain situations (I am, too) but that's no reason to put the blame on her if something happens.

[ego]

Originally Posted by Sternenlied

Because a wolf is considered an animal while a man is considered a human being.

Sorry to say that, but if u expect that people u meet in life will act like human beeings just because they are considered so, u will be very disapointed. Most people, when u give them a finger, want a whole arm...

Originally Posted by Sternenlied

The question of who's to blame in a rape is a rather interesting one..

For me is clear:A rapist is ALWAYS to be blamed. The fact that SOMETIMES the victim is partly responsible, dont changes this.

Originally Posted by Sternenlied

If something is not what we consider to be right we try to make it right (see Iraq).

Please stop with policy.Its a completely diferent thing.We can discuss it in another topic if u wish.

Originally Posted by Sternenlied

So if a woman cannot walk around however she likes to shouldn't we try to change that as well instead of saying "Just don't do that" or "Don't wear that"?

But we do try.Could your mother dress the way you do?
The reason i say "Just don't do that", is not because i belive u dont have the right.The reason is that i belive u put yourself in a dangerous situation.As i said before, find somebody to take u home safe, and dress (or undress) like u want!

[ego]

.

[ego]

Originally Posted by Joanna

so guess you got kind of lucky that your "partner" forgave your lack of control.

Not a "partner". Girlfriend for more than 3 and half years.

[Sternenlied]

Sorry to say that, but if u expect that people u meet in life will act like human beeings just because they are considered so, u will be very disapointed. Most people, when u give them a finger, want a whole arm...

Too true. I meant legally - a human being is not an animal.
Don't worry, I had my share of disappointments, so I am not easy to disappoint any more since I don't expect much from human beings.
But I do expect anyone to behave in a certain way when dealing with other people.

For me is clear:A rapist is ALWAYS to be blamed. The fact that SOMETIMES the victim is partly responsible, dont changes this.

I am not the one to disagree but the question of partial responsibility is the interesting one. I think that's contradiction. You can't always blame the rapist and put partial blame on the victim. Either the rapist is to blame or he's not. Blaming someone is nothing else than making this person responsible. So if you put responsibility on the victim you're blaming this person as well.

Please stop with policy.Its a completely diferent thing.We can discuss it in another topic if u wish.

I don't care much for politics, that was merely an example. What I think about it and what others think about it didn't come up.

But we do try.

My point exactly.

Could your mother dress the way you do?

To talk about that you would have to know how I dress ...
But of course she could. It might look ridiculous to some people but she still could if she wanted to.

The reason i say "Just don't do that", is not because i belive u dont have the right.The reason is that i belive u put yourself in a dangerous situation.As i said before, find somebody to take u home safe, and dress (or undress) like u want!

I agree. I'm just saying this can't be a solution but just a necessary evil.

[ego]

First of all, i take down the bait...

Originally Posted by Sternenlied

To talk about that you would have to know how I dress ...

How u dress Sternie? (pm is accepted also)

Originally Posted by Sternenlied

I meant legally - a human being is not an animal.

Well, legally...Its very dificult to make a low that fits to every single situation.I guess him who makes the low must have in mind that PROBABLY, someone, would never rape a girl unless he was extremely prvocated.I guess again, the low, accepts the nature of humans (perhaps accepts more the nature of men) and the fact that someone can lose control when provocated.So a percentage of responsibility is off of him and goes to the victim (perhaps should go to society, but how u put society in jail? )

Originally Posted by Sternenlied

So if you put responsibility on the victim you're blaming this person as well.

Sure i blame her.Not for beeing raped, but for not protecting herself

What about the animal?
Its called seep or ship?