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Old 09-04-2016, 05:45 PM   #41
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Yes but the Germans didn't give two fucks about human rights and would have ruthlessly occupied Ireland in days as the Irish had a very small volunteer army with no tanks or aircraft. Also, the Irish States dream of a united Ireland probably might have influenced them to welcome the Germans (if they had already subdued Britain) in order to be free of the British oppressors. The Irish usually returned RAF crewman who had baled out over Ireland back to the British. On the flip side, the Irish leader sent condolences to the German embassy in Dublin after Hitler's death, so the Irish appear to have played to both sides even though they were neutral.

The Royal Navy might well have proved useless with U-Boats prowling the English Channel in those days before sonar detection was available. At least 60 U-Boats were active at any one time in 1941 and they would have posed a serious threat to Royal Navy activities. Add to that Stuka dive-bombers and the German Navy itself.

The Germans stalled at Moscow wasn't a real disaster, it just stalled both sides until the weather improved. The German 1942 summer offensive completed most of their important objectives. Stalingrad was the real disaster as it also coincided with American involvement in North Africa. Once America got involved, Hitler had to factor that into how he distributed his dwindling resources. He called off the battle of Kursk just as it was about to turn to his advantage, so he could send tanks to Italy but totally disregarding the fact that it would take months to get the tanks from Russia to Italy. He deserved a slap on the head for not seeing out Kursk first, as the Germans were still ahead with the number of tanks and men available and Manstein correctly knew that he had the opportunity to destroy the Russians strategic armor in the Prochorovka area.

The point of all that is, until America got involved it was touch and go if Britain would survive. Churchill said in his memoirs that he didn't think they had a chance of winning, and he put his maximum efforts into getting America involved. When Pearl happened and Hitler declared war on America, Churchill knew the Germans would be defeated. Every decision Hitler made after that was influenced by the involvement of all the Allies.
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Old 09-04-2016, 07:08 PM   #42
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First, I'd disagree about Kursk. The German offensive failed because they attacked into to prepared Russian defensive positions. The Russians knew exactly where they going to attack, thanks to their own intelligence as well as reports from an agent they had planted in Bletchley Park. The Germans were stopped by Soviet minefields and prepared artillery positions. Then the Russians launched a massive armored counter attack. It was a classic case of German quality vs Russian quantity. The German panthers and tigers killed many more Russian tanks than they lost, but the Russians could lose dozens of tanks and they were easily replaced, each one the Germans lost was a catastrophe.

And I still maintain once the war in the east started a cross channel invasion of Britain was impossible, German air power was needed in Russia and north Africa. Without air superiority it would have been a disaster. In the close confines of the channel the U boats would have been easy meat. The British had made advances in anti submarine warfare, and really Hitler never was that enthusiastic about fighting England. His twisted racial ideas had always led him east, against the Slavs. He considered the British the racial equals of the Germans.
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Old 09-04-2016, 07:25 PM   #43
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I'm not at all sure it's a German slam dunk with out the Americans. In December '41 the western desert and the battle of the Atlantic were at a stalemate, the Germans were stalled in front of Moscow, all with out American involvement, aside from the material aid..
I agree. Attacking Russia while Britain was still undefeated was a mistake. With American material aid but no military involvement, I think Germany could have been beaten by Russia and Britain. Or at least fought to a standstill and peace terms agreed that would have seen compromises from both sides.
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Old 09-04-2016, 10:14 PM   #44
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So, for the end game, no way the Germans and the Soviets reach an agreement, this was a war of extermination on both sides. It goes to the end, I give the Russians the slight edge, population, natural resources and fanaticism.

The British, either hold on for the long war, or sign off on a piece that lets them s keep most of their colonies.

As I stated earlier, without the Japanese tied down with the Americans, they determine how things turn out in Asia and possibly the world
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Old 09-08-2016, 09:20 AM   #45
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So, for the end game, no way the Germans and the Soviets reach an agreement, this was a war of extermination on both sides. It goes to the end.

Yes I think that's a sensible view. The Germans were too arrogant to negotiate with what they regarded as an inferior race. That view was ingrained into them and they took victory over the soviets for granted.
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Old 09-08-2016, 02:00 PM   #46
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The Luftwafe did accidently bomb Dublin.
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Old 09-08-2016, 09:00 PM   #47
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The Luftwafe did accidently bomb Dublin.

Yes, and to my surprise I found an article by one of the pilots involved, in which he apologized:

THE GUILT-STRICKEN confession of an ex-Luftwaffe pilot, the schoolboy memories of an Irish-born British army officer and a pile of 50-year-old intelligence files have conspired to re-open the great mystery of Irish neutrality in the Second World War: why did Germany bomb the "open" city of Dublin on the night of 31 May 1941?

The attack on the North Strand in Dublin killed 34 Irish civilians and wounded 90, prompting apologies from Nazi Germany and claims by the British that de Valera's neutral Ireland was at last paying the price for "sitting on the fence" during the war against the Third Reich. After the war, Germany paid compensation to the Irish Republic for what it described as a military error, while British intelligence officers suggested that the German aircraft - en route to a target in the United Kingdom - had been deliberately steered towards Dublin by RAF experts who had "bent" the Luftwaffe direction-finding radio beams.

Now an elderly German - living in Canada and calling himself only Heinrich, but insisting he was one of the Luftwaffe pathfinder pilots on the night of the Dublin bombing - has broadcast an appeal for forgiveness over RTE, Irish state radio. He was asked to bomb Belfast, he said, but his two squadrons of 30 aircraft approached Dublin by mistake. "Please forgive me for this mistake which was beyond our control," Heinrich told reporter Micheal Holmes. "There was no wrongdoing on our side. Everybody was upset, not only the members of the [German] air force, but politically as well."
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Old 09-10-2016, 02:47 AM   #48
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Irish neutrality in WWII was a major sore point in Anglo/Irish relations for quite some time. Apparently Britain had no problems with the Swedes and the Swiss being neutral, but they were outraged that Ireland didn't leap in on their side. The Irish had been independent for less than twenty years , and that independence only achieved by way of a bloody two year guerilla war.

There was a considerable portion of the Irish population that did favor entering the war, but this was a result of revulsion for the Nazis rather than any loyalty or affection for their former colonial masters.

Even so, Irish neutrality was tilted toward the allies, as has been mentioned British and later American fliers that came down in Ireland were discreetly slipped over the border into Ulster, Luftwaffe air crews were interned for the duration. Given how things turned out for the Germans, sitting out the war in an Irish internment camp was not the worst that could happen to you. then the was the famous case of the Dublin fire brigades racing up the coast and crossing the border to fight the fires after the Luftwaffe bombed Belfast.

As to Irish collusion with the Germans, there simply was none by the Irish government. De Valera had no sympathy for the Nazis, but he was determined to keep Ireland out of the war. Much has been made of the fact that he sent condolences to the German Embassy upon Hitler's death, the reasons were most likely two fold: first, Ireland had diplomatic relations with Germany, protocol would dictate this, the second reason, being personal. It was a slap in the face to the British. De Valera had been sentenced to death by the British government for his role in the Easter Rising in 1916, he was only spared because of his being half American to avoid inflaming Irish American opinion at a time when Britain was courting the US to enter WW1. A death sentence is not an easy one to forgive and forget.

The IRA was another matter. They did actively cooperate with the Germans. There was a loose somewhat far fetched plan of a major IRA uprising in Northern Ireland financed by the Germans and carried out with modern German equipment supplied to the IRA. Again it should be noted that the IRA really no sympathy for the Nazis, it was more of a the enemy of my enemy is my friend type of thing. Many IRA volunteers had fought the fascists in Spain, notably Frank Ryan whose release from one of Franco's prisons was engineered by the Germans so he could return to Ireland.

Back to the Irish governments role, one of the principal reasons the IRA German alliance never came to anything was the ruthless suppression of his former IRA comrades by De Valera. He rightly saw an active IRA as giving Churchill the excuse he needed to invade and reoccupy Ireland.

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Old 09-10-2016, 11:09 AM   #49
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Irish Republicans were, and remain, scum.
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Old 09-10-2016, 01:39 PM   #50
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a little touchy are we? Perhaps your feelings were hurt by the "scum" tossing you out of most of Ireland in 1921? And then things got worse when after 30 years in northern Ireland thousands of British troops along with the SAS couldn't prevent the "scum" from operating at will in Ireland or the UK itself. Or maybe you're a little out of sorts that the First Deputy Minister of Northern Ireland is a former ranking officer in the IRA and Belfast has a Sinn Fein mayor?

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Old 09-10-2016, 06:27 PM   #51
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No. I'm not hurt. Irish paramilitaries preyed upon working class people for generations, oppressing entire communities. They are no better than organised criminals. I don't really care what their supposed political or religious allegances are/were.

Paramilitary organisations in Northern Ireland have operated like a shadow government for generations. It's bad enough that ordinary citizens be subjected to a supposedly legitimate government, and have to pay a protection tribute in the form of taxes. To have a criminal organisation operate in your community on top of that, claiming to stand for and protect the citizens, but in reality only there to milk more from their labour is just disgusting.

That is not "touchy" at all. That is cold hard reality, the IRA, like the Mafia, have done nothing to deserve the support it has in its own community, it simply rules by fear.
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Old 09-10-2016, 06:35 PM   #52
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If you have a problem with the IRA, look no further than your own government. The IRA in 1969 was a spent force, the border campaign of the '50s had been a dismal failure. Most of the IRA was moving towards doctrinaire Marxism, the few remaining who advocated violence were old men singing " A Nation Once Again" until they had enough Guiness to fall off their pub stools.

Then the civil rights movement started to gain traction, Northern Ireland was run as a third world police state for 40% of the population. Time and time again peaceful marchers were set upon by Unionist mobs, the RUC at best stood by and watched, in some cases actively participated. There was were what resembled eastern European pogroms in the nationalist areas of the north. When the British army was initially deployed as peace keepers, they were welcomed in the nationalist areas. Irish women brought tea out to British soldiers.

But very quickly it became obvious that the army were not peacekeepers, but it was more of the same, an army of occupation. the Provisional IRA was born out of the need for someone, anyone to protect the nationalist areas from the orange mobs and RUC. British government policy was the most effective recruiting campaign for the IRA in generations.

And then, when support for the armed struggle was waning in the '80's the British government stepped on it's dick again. the world watched while the Thatcher government let ten young Irishmen starve to death rather than make some relatively minor concessions in the terms of their confinement. At each funeral the marchers went from hundreds to thousands, to tens of thousands. Sinn Fein was vaulted from a political after thought to a major force on both sides of the border.

So, if the Republicans have not yet sent a nice thank you card and perhaps a fruit basket, their manners are slipping.

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Old 09-10-2016, 06:59 PM   #53
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If you bothered to read my post properly, you would realise I have a "problem" with both the IRA and "my own" government.

I'm not particularly bothered about sides. The IRA are still scum.
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Old 09-10-2016, 08:14 PM   #54
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you're correct that the IRA functions as a a defacto police force in the nationalist areas. this would not be possible if the population did not have a deep distrust of the official police force. Their primary source of funds is shaking down drug dealers, with the occasional bank raid tossed in. I'll admit that since the end of the troubles, many of the IRA leaders made some serious money. Gasoline cigarette smuggling and apparently pork smuggling are big business. Not sure about the pig smuggling, must be an Irish thing

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Old 09-17-2016, 08:05 AM   #55
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Pig smuggling is news to me, but given the European Unions regulation on livestock movement I can imagine it to be lucrative. The horse meat scandal from a few years ago had much of its origins in Ireland and Romania.

Edited to add: I personally wasn't scandalised by the horse meat scandal, I like a horse burger as much as the next blood thirsty bastard!
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