The real national shame belongs to you Septics, as far as the war in Europe goes. Waiting on the sidelines to see which way it was going before picking a side to join. I'm sure if the Japanese hadn't forced your hand, you would have much rather have been fighting the Russians! ;)

Huh???? The Russians were our allies at the time. They only became the enemy since the beginning of the Cold War - and it didn't end until Glastnost and the fall of the Berlin Wall. If you want to continually re-write history, as you have been in the thread, then write an alternate history story. I also highly recommend you read "Fatherland" by British author Richard Harris, which beautifully describes in detail how different history would be if Germany had won WWII (which happens in the story because America didn't pick a side in Europe, and stayed isolationist).

By the way, I get it FR... you don't like Americans, so just come out and fucking say it. Use of the word "septic" comes from "septic tank" and is Cockney slang for a yank (American). So fuck off.

Oh dear, touched a raw nerve did I? :)

Oh not at all - I'm laughing on the inside :D But saying "Fuck off" does feel good :skull-big

Just you seem to be taking a bit of banter rather seriously. If I wanted to take part in a serious historical discussion, I'd join a serious historical discussion forum or group.

The one undeniable fact is, the USA came late to the party, expect to be reminded of that fact whenever you start banging on about world wars! :)

Remember folks, this is in Idle Talk and not the Rowdy Room, so don't start slinging insults and get yourselves in trouble!

Says the man who called France a bunch of dirty surrender monkeys! ;)

That's not an insult because it is true! :)
Plus I wasn't insulting a particular fellow member of RB! I'm sure you're well away of the rules Rotter and that is why you love the Rowdy room.

This whole argument as to who did what to whom and why is ridiculous. Lord knows there is enough shame - and glory - to go around.

The Americans decided to sit by and watch the world burn until they blew up our ships. Then we got mad. It's no good acting like conquering heroes when in fact it was us throwing a playground tantrum.

The Brits can't exactly claim the high road, either. You abandoned the very colonies you swore to protect, with Churchill telling those colonies to go ask the Americans for support. This led directly to the fall of the British Empire, since nobody wanted to defer to a Crown which scuttles and runs when the going gets rough.

Net result? Even a remarkably inept Axis very nearly conquered two nations which before the war were considered major powers and lots of brave soldiers on all sides lost their lives.

Hitler probably put too much faith in the Italians to begin with.

Personally my favourites, other than us plucky Brits, were the Finns. They made an uneasy alliance with Germany, but were the only ones in the whole job who just wanted to kill communists!

Yes, I think a better title to this topic would be "Patriotic Delusion".
Just one thing, there is no glory in war.

You know when a thread starts off really interesting but then you just don't even bother to read the last dozen posts?

Yeah, this one :p

x

The Americans made valuable contributions to the war, major ones, but the Germans would still have lost even if the American government had refused to join the war.

Even if the Germans manage to capture England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland, you still had massive areas of Commonwealth ristance in Canada, Newfoundland (wasn't apart of Canada yet) Australia, New Zealand, India, and other parts of the British Empire and Hitler was over extended as it was. The Germans, Italians, and Japanese would have burned out and ran out of resources before they could have taken out the rest of the British Empire.

And invading Canada would have been too risky, it would likely have dragged the Americans in anyways.

And the Canadian government had no problem recruiting Americans into our military. German didn't stand a chance by the end of the day.

That being said the cost of the war on my country if the Americans hadn't joined would have been horrifying, so I'm very glad they did.

We also provided the trucks and weapons for that pincer, and the big bombers that hammered the Germans at home. :D
The commies weren't going to do it on their own, and but for our help the jackboots would have been marching over Westminster Bridge.

I just love these kind of threads. :skull-bee

They wouldn't have needed to take the rest. Once the home country and capital is lost, that's the end for that particular enemy. Look how the other European Empire nations like France and Holland capitulated in spite of having vast overseas territories, none of which were worth a damn once their homelands were lost.
I think if there Germans had defeated Russia and Britain, there would have been some sort of a peace deal with the USA which would have seen a partial pullout of Germans from the UK at least. Otherwise we could never have been able to invade Europe because Ireland would have been occupied in a couple of days and converted into a huge German UBoat and Naval base, the whole Mediterranean would have been closed off to us and we wouldn't have had anywhere to invade.
In those circumstances, Germany wouldn't have needed to go anywhere near the USA, they could have sat where they were and gave us the two-finger salute. At least until we got the a bomb, assuming of course they didn't get it before us.

interesting thread, aside from the nationalist chest thumping. But, if anyone is interested, a what if Pearl Harbor never happens, the US stays neutral, so how the war shake out from there, I think it's a 50/50 chance for the axis and allies, anyone have any thoughts?

It was a fake neutrality as we were giving convoy loads of aid the the British and Russians for a year before Pearl. That aid alone had to be a big help against the Germans.

There is no doubt the lend-lease of military equipment to the British helped them to stay at liberty until the USA got involved in the war. But to be fair to history, the bigger help to the British staying in until we got there was the Germans monumental error in discontinuing the air raids on the RAF, which was scraping the barrel for aircraft because the Luftwaffe was hammering their airfields and factories. Once the Germans switched to bombing British cities it gave the RAF much needed time to build up stock and strike back hard at the German bombers, which made Hitler change his mind about invading. But for that, the Germans would probably have invaded Britain in 1941, before they invaded Russia. Another mistake by the Germans was not destroying ther remains of the British army at Dunkirk. They really should have either bombed fuck out of them or captured them. Letting 300,000 experienced military escape home only to have to face them in North Africa later on was a mistake.

If the Germans had invaded Britain, they also would have steamrolled into Ireland with no resistance as Ireland was as backward as fuck back then, and closed off the waters right from the Norwegian Sea down to the English Channel and even further down to the Gibraltar Straits once Franco had decided to walk into Gibraltar. The British in North Africa would have most likely surrender as part of the deal they made with the Germans, thus also closing off the Mediterranean Sea.

That done, there would be no hope of the USA invading Europes soft underbelly, or anywhere in France for lack of bases in Britain or North Afrca. Which would have left Russia really fucked even if Hitler had postponed his invasion until 1942, which is what he really should have done in order to build up more reserves of tanks and planes, and winter coats so his men didn't have to die in vain in the fucking snow outide Moscow.

Bottom line is that nobody on their own was going to beat the Germans. It was team effort or nothing. Saying anything less is a disservice to all those who served and gave their lives to the war effort.

I'm not at all sure it's a German slam dunk with out the Americans. In December '41 the western desert and the battle of the Atlantic were at a stalemate, the Germans were stalled in front of Moscow, all with out American involvement, aside from the material aid.

The wild card would have been the Japanese. Stalin being able to pull his Siberian divisions west had as much to do with stopping the German's as the weather. If the Japanese invaded Siberia, the Russians could have been in for a very bad time.

I don't think the invasion of Britain would ever have been feasible, the Germans just didn't have the naval power to match the Royal navy.

As for steamrolling Ireland, ask the British how occupying powers do there. They were there for 800 years and never pacified the Irish.